Competing academically against kids who have private tutors

Parents Forum
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<p>“The tutoring I have trouble with is the type that helps A students become A+ students.” - That sums up my feeling too. Until this thread it never occurred to me that this trend existed. </p>

<p>My kids managed various sports and music and clubs on a low key level. That was fine. As DS’s music talents evolved, we encouaged him to follow his passions. We spent a lot on instruments and piano lessons (much less hourly it seems than tutors). His sax was all learned at school. Like sports it was all a wonderful balance to academics and in retrospect easier than dealing with team practices/games would have been.</p>

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<p>Sorry, this topic hits close to me since honesty and ethics are major interests.
Parent-paid tutoring has gotten out of hand in many parts of Silicon Valley (= wealthier areas). Aiming high for academic achievement of one’s offspring is fine; I am concerned about borderline unethical “tactics” employed by persistent helicopter parents.</p>

<p>It’s making a mockery of education in local HS (and is actually disrespectful of the teachers, the curriculum). This makes for an uneven playing field. College admissions are very competitive here, and parents are using increasingly sneaky tactics to give their kids the ever so slight edge or the innovative hook. </p>

<p>First off, money makes a big difference - some can afford high-grade paid SAT tutoring for YEARS; taking SAT multiple times; college applications preparations services run into many thousands of dollars here. Secretive paid prepping/tutoring for AP courses. Sometimes others do a kid’s work. Parent-arranged internships/jobs (prestigious settings). I am so proud we did not utilize these tactics and my kids know they get themselves where they are BY THEMSELVES with appropriate parental support within appropriate boundaries.</p>

<p>I have issues with parents who have their kids take a high-level, high status class/curriculum before taking it for a grade (whether in a class situation or via tutoring). It is borderline unethical. I notice a lot of secrecy. If you’re not secretly ashamed of this practice, why don’t you let your kid be honest when the teacher asks who is being tutored? I am aware of a case locally where only one girl was honest about being tutored and raised her hand. (There were no repercussions in any sense, but it is interesting that parents give their children secret weapons and tell them to be quiet about it.)</p>

<p>How about having the student take responsibility for his/her learning, within reasonable bounds, for better or for worse? How about learning IN CLASS, doing the homework as you go along with some of the other students instead of chuckling and yawning since you already were taught it? </p>

<p>We have an area with many outstanding teachers, so the argument that teachers/curriculum are defective doesn’t wash here. I guess it could be the case elsewhere. </p>

<p>OR…if you think the Math is “too slow” why don’t you courteously approach the school board to discuss the topic FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY. No – instead, it’s REALLY all about you and your kid and only your kid. I have seen some very average, normal kids (not remedial) get elevated to prize-winning status if enough years are invested in this and enough pressure/support applied. </p>

<p>The problem, of course is that it IS a high-stakes competition lately for math awards, various honors, university admissions, etc. Some high-achieving kids are left in the dust when only a certain number can be offered a place at a certain university and there are many local applicants. Sometimes I can’t help but feel more-deserving applicants are overlooked or squeezed out, and the sorrow is they are the HONEST ones.</p>

<p>Sure, I support remedial or basic enrichment tutoring or summer courses - no problem. That’s not the issue.</p>

<p>University and college admissions professionals: please consider revamping some of your admissions criteria. I recommend interviews or some sort of orals in order to determine genuine student knowledge, motivation, achievement; written statements concerning outside sources of “assistance” utilized during HS and college apps process. Please try to avoid the cheaters and plagiarists, too. I recommend a skeptical eye at trumped-up community service (esp international heart-string-pulling ones arranged by parents of the applicant!)</p>

<p>Good luck to all you honest aspiring college students - try to find and apply to places that offer the best fit with you and your goals. Some of us ARE pulling for you. :)</p>

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<p>I can see tutoring in say, higher math if your kid is a math genius and way ahead of what the school offers. I would find a college student to help my child learn Calc or Multivariable if our school did not offer it–and was not likely to ever offer it due to there just not being other kids at that level.</p>

<p>But tutoring an A kid to A plus, or to make a great SAT score into perfect? That’s just silly, IMO.</p>

<p>We didn’t do any tutoring or classes and my kids all were NMFs. Not bragging, just a fact. They also wrote their own college app essays, for better or worse (some terrific writers, some not.)</p>

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<p>lateparty --my school recently had a child of one of “those” parents get caught for cheating. The parents were called in and literally said, “what’s the big deal? everybody does it!” They went as far as to say that “everyone knows that is what you have to do to get ahead in life.” These people are well healed professionals. Uhm… yuk! People with integrity will never be able to compete with people like this.
We also had a set of attorney parents dig deep to find some Native American blood (children are blond haired blue eyed and family is VERY wealthy) and had their daughter apply to Stanford as a Native American. It worked! She was pretty high average, but not what you would consider Stanford material. I think all Stanford cared about was their percent of URM’s. So they are part of the problem as well.</p>

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<p>The featured student grad speaker a few yrs ago from our prestigious local public HS was accepted to that same university - as far as I know went on to attend there - shortly thereafter, a student from neighboring city of slightly lesser acclaim exposed the grad speaker as a plagiarist (info readily available on the net/ in official local news media sources). As I understand it, the kid still entered since it was “too late” for the school district to report to the university or for the university to take action. OF COURSE they claim they don’t approve of plagiarists.
It is semi-distressing such individuals may take coveted slots at high calibre universities. I don’t think poor behavior should be rewarded (school has a student handbook clearly outlawing plagiarism, etc., so student can’t claim to have been uninformed, as some do when caught cheating/plagiarizing…) - they try to cut a fine line or claim ignorance in some respect. The real thing is to know right from wrong, a valuable skill for the sake of our society.
I think some teens are so pressured by parents they are lowering themselves to cheating and plagiarism, a terrible shame.</p>

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<p>Before we had kids we lived in a high pressure community in Northern NJ. We rode on the local first aid squad and experienced many first aid calls with teenagers where either hard drugs or alcohol with absentee parents were involved or the kids were on depression meds. I told my husband that I did not want to raise children in this environment, so we moved to the next town east that values diversity over high achievement. There is still pressure to succeed but I don’t think any of the top 10 kids have private tutors, they are naturally smart. </p>

<p>I think some parents measure their self-worth by their children’s success.</p>

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<p>Lucky you, mommusic. I bet there aren’t enough money on Earth that can make every kid a NMSF. Tutoring one’s kids is not the problem, score-based college admission is.</p>

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<p>My observation in the OP was about tutoring top students to ensure they stay on top, and how the non-tutored kids can compete against them. We may question whether this type of tutoring is good for the students involved or whether it is even fair to other non-tutored classmates. It is not about blatant cheating and plagiarism. Please do not equate the two. However, if a tutor helps a student with the homework to the point of ensuring all the answers are correct then it is, in my opinion, cheating.</p>

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<p>Please read my post in context. I was responding to couple comments on “math team kids need no tutoring” because they are already very good. The whole point of OP was about competing against tutored kids who were already very good to begin with.</p>

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<p>Very interesting point, Marian. You could be right. This makes a good research topic.</p>

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<p>One answer to the question of how a kid can compete without resorting to the extreme, excessive and/or expensive measures of his classmates is to simply STICK WITH IT LONGER THAN THEY DO! Time and again we saw kids “better” than ours just give up along the way for one reason or another. Sometimes there are misfortunes that happen to people, like sickness or injury, and the student lacks the health or perseverance to bounce back. Some kids quit an EC because their pride is hurt, like the 3 very good, travel-league trained soccer players my S knew, who were furious when in 7th grade they didn’t get chosen for the varsity team of mostly 8th graders like 3 of their friends did. Some quit because they’re insulted, like the girl my S knew who quit the play because she didn’t get the lead role she thought she deserved since she took voice lessons and the chosen girl didn’t. Kids quit when things don’t go their way, like when the coach’s son gets to play first base even though he’s not as good as the quitter is at that position. There are kids who drop various EC’s because they get a job, a boyfriend/girlfriend, or a drug habit. Some become burned out because the EC has dominated their lives for so long and it’s no longer fun. Others get sick of their parents pushing them to be the best at that thing, and finally say “I quit!” Some merely narrow their focus along the way and drop secondary interests.</p>

<p>The same thing happens within academics too. One really smart boy stopped studying when his mom got cancer. It was very sad, but fortunately he found his way again in college. One girl started cutting herself because of the pressure her parents put on her, and had to be sent to live with a relative in another district. A friend of my D’s told her very academic-oriented parents that she was tired of working so hard in school; she “just wanted to be a gym teacher” and said she didn’t care that her older sister was going to be a doctor and her brother an engineer. Some students who have gotten where they are because of a lot of parental help, will flounder when they lose that support when mom goes back to work, or dad gets laid off and thus money for tutoring is no longer available. Certain perennially tutored kids reach a point beyond which their own, natural intellect can’t carry them, yet your child CAN still move forward. Senioritis happens. Cheating happens too, though it very seldom gets punished. In general, talented quitters and slackers are a dime a dozen, so teach your kid to work hard, be persistent, and stay in it for the long haul.</p>

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<p>Well, lateparty, being of course in education myself and supportive of public schools (and their students) to the max of my ability, I do not disagree in theory with some of your argument – to wit, why not demand of schools that they provide such challenge.</p>

<p>Again, I have no dog in this fight, as neither of my children was a math whiz, nor did the more theoretical of the two find her private school math program wanting. I’m speaking as one who receives parental complaints, and watches the desperate and scattered tone of the math curriculum & approach(es) in the publics, including in elementary. (I fleshed this out on other threads recently; no need for me to bore everyone here.)</p>

<p>I have definitely witnessed the phenomenon you have also seen: impatient promotion/self-promotion of one’s own, and to an extreme (including the abandonment of ethics, as evident in the abundance of cheating which you note), and a disinterest in approaching the schools directly.</p>

<p>But I have also seen parents make direct requests of teachers and administrators, and they have gotten nowhere. I speak now of the middle-class suburban schools, not the wealthier ones; my population is slightly different. In general, the requests are viewed as GATE in category, with nothing else considered, and a strange (sometimes) bar for that label, including rigid timing of GATE qualification, and very little public information about it. Could educators think outside the box? Certainly, but frankly most of them are too caught up in “the system” and the “boxing” of “programs” that it doesn’t occur to them that something less formal, bureaucratic, and “classified” could be implemented. (In my day, the more capable, observant teachers would provide various challenges in various subjects for students without concern as to what was and was not “approved” and “official.” Creative & brave teachers can still do this, but there’s a mentality that tends to work against that, because such teachers will be scrutinized, questioned, doubted for doing something that isn’t in The Script.)</p>

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<p>Reverting back to the concerns of some of you that overly supported & assisted students are later not evaluated accurately as independent students (for college admissions), I agree with this aspect of concern. It could be argued that a student not sufficiently challenged in public school math (for example) would have that challenge more honestly tested by taking community college courses. This is what one poster’s son did, for several years; he ended up virtually exhausting, as I recall, whatever math options the c.college had for him. </p>

<p>In our State, supplementing school with comm. college courses is an option beginning with Grade 5, although realistically most students do not feel begin to lose self-consciousness in that adult environment until at least Grade 7. Community college is used by more than just homeschoolers.</p>

<p>So sure: If a student, particularly a high school student, is so “advanced” and needing such challenge, the real test of genuine intellectual ability is an advanced course, not indiividual coaching in a course which primes him for the same course next semester. In my work I have begun to see a trend toward the dependency that some of you are predicting. What’s happening for many students is a syndrome of panic at the beginning of every semester…And, as you may have guessed, it isn’t always initiated from the student. The moment – from the first week of the h.s. course, that the student experiences less than perfect comprehension & performance, parental anxiety kicks into Overdrive, and the student is rushed into tutoring on a heavy schedule (4-6 times/week). I’ve watched these students over a 3-year period; they become increasingly paralyzed to do anything on their own. It’s not just the independence & self-confidence that are lost: it’s the cognitive gains that result from struggling with new concepts, that are lost.</p>

<p>That is certainly one abuse of tutoring, i.m.o. But do know that some tutoring centers are essentially alternate schools. They are not repeating or anticipating, nor are they offering homework help: they are filling gaps. In some cases it’s a rejection of what is being offered in the schools, or how (poorly) it’s being taught. In other cases it’s supplementary (full) courses in smaller and very homogenous environments. I am of the opinion that that also is part of the goal: homogeneity.</p>

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<p>Regarding the advanced knowledge of Asian/Asian-American students, this may not necessarily be because they received advanced tutoring to get an “Easy A”. </p>

<p>Those who just arrived from their countries of origin came from education systems where the curricula…especially in math and science is far ahead of most US schools…including the very best public/private schools. </p>

<p>For instance, in Taiwan…one must complete biology, chemistry, earth science, and physics with labs along with pre-calculus/calc 1 in junior high if one wants to be admitted to an “academic track” high school necessary to ensure success on the national college entrance exam. Those who fail to complete that curricula are often placed on the “vocational track” high school which severely reduces their chances at the highly cutthroat high stakes national college entrance exam (About 33% of examinees failed to gain admission to any institution sometime in the middle of the aughts). A serious matter considering that exam’s score is almost always the sole determinant of not only which university one is admitted to, but also which department/major one studies. </p>

<p>China, South Korea, Singapore, Japan, and many other Asian countries have similar educational systems. </p>

<p>“University and college admissions professionals: please consider revamping some of your admissions criteria. I recommend interviews or some sort of orals in order to determine genuine student knowledge, motivation, achievement; written statements concerning outside sources of “assistance” utilized during HS and college apps process. Please try to avoid the cheaters and plagiarists, too. I recommend a skeptical eye at trumped-up community service (esp international heart-string-pulling ones arranged by parents of the applicant!)”</p>

<p>Interestingly, one reason why interviews or oral examinations have never been implemented by my public urban magnet high school was because of the perception they can be easily gamed by wealthier parents who could pay consultants to aid their children in doing so…assuming their privileged position did not avail them of the skills to provide such tutelage themselves. </p>

<p>Add to this the fears of introducing personal biases on the basis of race, class, or other factors…especially when some of these factors have come to pass in the history of US higher ed (i.e. Columbia College’s option to include one’s photo was once mandatory as a way to exclude anyone who “looked” Jewish, Eastern European, or any other undesirable group from the early part of the 20th century because they felt “too many” of them were enrolling.). </p>

<p>As a result of these factors, my urban magnet high school continues to rely on standardized test scores which while imperfect…does provide a perceived “objective” baseline to compare students which they felt minimizes the possibilities of socio-economic advantages.</p>

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<p>My earlier post was not in support of rote academic practice for the purpose of gaining admission to an elite school. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I am seeing too many parents that are buying into the sports craze which is just as stressful for the kids as it is the parents. The days of family dinners are over in my neighborhood because the kids are running to practices almost everyday of the week yet a parent who seeks enrichment for their child two or three hours a week is viewed as being over the top, success whores, or controlling. I think there needs to be perspective for both the sports families and the academic enriched groups. Most of the kids that are putting 25+ hours a week into sports will never even play that sport in college. Are sports good for kids, no one would argue that they aren’t. But have sports taken over other more important things like academic success…I would say they have. In my town there are those whose primary concern is academic, and there are those whose primary concern is sports. The parents that seem to have it together are those who do things somewhere in the middle. When enrichment is a mere 2 or 3 hours a week, and the kids are playing outside and taking music lessons or art classes I think balance has been met. When kids are being taken off to more sports practices than they could possibly enjoy than I say the smart ones are the academic group. It is rare that the two groups strike that all important middle ground. </p>

<p>The only time that my kids received tutoring was when they needed a math class that they did not receive in middle school so they could attend their magnet highschool. None of my kids joined organizied sports because they are all outdoor kids and skiing and boarding were their sports. The highschools do not offer climbing as a sport or long distance bike racing. These are the sports that they persued on their own and on their terms. We had dinner together everynight because that was important to us. </p>

<p>The thread that is asking how do non tutored kids compete with those who are tutored could probably be better answered if people were asked what is most important to your family? I think the treadmill needs to slow down so that kids could just be kids again. The problem is not with the two or three hours of enrichment, it is with anything that takes priority over being a great kid who has an opportunity to go through all the things that are part of being a kid. If kids do not play outside in unsupervised play they are missing the opportunity to navigate relationships and engage in creative experiences. They are also missing the chance to learn by their own mistakes or to discover what it is to be a friend without a coach or parent telling them how they should behave. The kid who is being academically enriched seems to be the one who is coming out ahead because they are not engrossed in the organized play arena because it would interfer with the balance of both their unorganized play and their academics. Of course when the pendulum swings to either extreme you are looking at either a kid who rarely strikes a good balance. That was the point that I was making earlier when I said that academic enrichment in moderation (not rote daily work) seems to be the more important than the frenetic organized sports families.</p>

<p>By the way,
Enrichment provides the opportunity for students to learn what schools are either not teaching or they are not teaching in depth. Tutoring is a service that offers help to struggling students. Services such as Kuman are a practice of skills in a rote fashion. The best enrichment services are those that work with kids on a one to one to explore areas that will enhance a childs life. JMHO</p>

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<p>lake42ks–and I too doubt all the money in the world can make every kid be a NMF. What does money have to do with it?</p>

<p>My kids were lucky to have good brains, and they used them. They hardly ever watched TV, read a lot, did their work in school, and it turned out they did well on the PSAT. They were “good enough” in both English and Math, which is what the test is about.</p>

<p>That doesn’t mean they had smooth sailing in college. One is struggling because he doesn’t like doing things that are “hard” and he has finally found some “hard” courses. He’s finishing up a year late…but he’s finishing.</p>

<p>The poster that remarked a lot of kids quit made a good point. Persistence goes a longer way than a brilliant quitter. I used to get so mad at my kids who (sometimes) didn’t want to do the work because they “knew” it. Some other kid who worked harder was going to get the reward, I warned them.</p>

<p>So bottom line, tutoring only does so much.</p>

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<p>Nice post, momma-three. All things in moderation seems the wisest path. However, parents also need to evaluate where a child’s talent lies. On one hand, every child will need a minimal level of academic or vocational achievement to find a job which can pay the bills. So, academics can’t be neglected. One doesn’t necessarily need a minimal level of achievement in sports, however. Being fit will provide health benefits, and obese people have a tough time finding employment, but dedication to sports is not essential in the same way as dedication to academics.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are a lot of children who simply aren’t very bright. The manufacturing jobs which used to be a refuge for non-academic people who weren’t college material, have mostly disappeared from America. Add to this low IQ group a sizeable number who have learning disabilities, ADD, and autism spisctrum disorders. Where will they fit in? Parents often don’t know the answer to that, and they find the demands of our educational system to be overwhelming. For example, now many kids come into kindergarten able to read, and if a child can’t read by the end of kindergarten it is perceived to be a problem. For kids like these, sports and video games become a haven where they can find success. That may be some of what’s going on.</p>

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<p>It appears we have four responses on what non-tutored kids and their families can do when their high performing classmates are tutored.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>This is an arms race and the Joneses have thrown down the gauntlet, let the war begin!</p></li>
<li><p>Tough it out and outlast them. This may work against a few tutored kids, but we don’t have a good reason to believe most of these bright tutored kids will fall by the wayside before they complete their college apps. Given most “good” publics schools only send a handful of kids, if any, to top colleges every year, the non-tutored kids are still at a huge disadvantage. But, I do like the soar-above-the-odds resolve here.</p></li>
<li><p>There’s gotta be a less crazy place. Pack up and move to a different school. This may give the non-tutored kids their chance to shine, but this may not be possible due to family circumstances. If the transferred-to school is low on the competitive side, even its valedictorians may have a hard time gaining acceptance to elite colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>Do the best you can and let the chips fall where they may, and don’t be part of the admissions rat race. This calls for not viewing acceptance to an elite college as an all-or-nothing goal, but having a self assurance that as long as you work to the best of your ability, success will follow, regardless of what others are doing.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Comments?</p>

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<p>I am not sure I understand why parental academic support is such a bad idea. I strongly believe that it works much (whole tons) better than private paid tutors and as additional benefit, it brings family closer and kids have higher respect for parents who are not only willing to spend time to figure out material and help them, but realization that parents are capable of understanding HS textbooks might be of pleasant shock to kids. Some of them believe that we have lost some of our brain power and going into sinility stage (there is nothing wrong with that, some of us are pretty old).</p>

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<h1>4. Neither of my kids were into sports when they were young (did gymnastics early on, dropped it at around age 6). They both did two years of band in elem school, decided it wasn’t their cuppa tea. Both did things that interested them. I wish one of my kids was a bit more well-rounded, but that’s who he is. It works for him. The other kiddo gravitated to things that were more people-intensive.</h1>

<p>We avoided the CTY/SAT prep arms race. They were already in very competitive academic programs, so we (kids and parents) felt no desire to up the ante. Both my kids liked having downtime to think, vegetate, read what they wanted, hike and camp, etc. </p>

<p>Some of our friends in other parts of the country envy the academic opportunties our kids have had, but they did NOT envy the homework and pressure that accompanied it. I envy the relaxed life that our friends have, but know that without the academics, at least one of my kids would have been seriously unhappy.</p>

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<p>One addition to above. We have told D. never to compare herself to others. I do not know if it was good or bad, because she ended up setting her own goals / standards that she used as a base for comparison purposes way up in a sky. But she did reach her skys at every point.<br>
And to comment on above, all along she has literally buried herself in numerous EC’s all thru HS and at college. When her pre-med advisor was reviewing her Med. School applications, her comments were basically, how in a world you have fitted everything. The answer was pretty simply, she had this busy life since she was 5 by her own choice too. She was offerred to participate and then we have patiently waited for her to drop out. But it has never happened. Some kids thrive on being busy and challenged. They benefit from EC’s not just in academics, but socially too. It makes them happy. Got to watch your child, everybody is very different, one more reason not to compare them.</p>

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<p>Here’s an article from today’s NYT that relates tangentially to this thread topic.</p>

<p>Scrutinizing the Elite, Whether They Like It or Not </p>

<p><a href=“Studying the Elite, Whether They Like It or Not - The New York Times”>Studying the Elite, Whether They Like It or Not - The New York Times;