Competing academically against kids who have private tutors

Parents Forum
481

<p>Again, post 475 is immaterial and inapplicable to students who are being discussed on this particular thread: in traditional site schools (not homeschooled) with an intense schedule at that school (including Zero Period), not to mention on-campus e.c.'s, often. (Tutoring often occurs after that.) The community college classes available to these students, schedule-wise, being discussed on this thread, are often non-existent when all settles out, since evening/weekend classes are often filled to capacity by full-time high-school graduates who have priority. It completely depends on the location – not just the State but a denser locality within that State.</p>

<p>In my State the students who are the template variety being discussed on this thread sometimes do not have local opportunities, in the context of above. Now, they could travel 90 minutes or so to partake of less-crowded & less impacted classes at off-hours, but given their tutoring & e.c. schedules, they won’t be doing so, as “opportunity” (challenge, including college-level challenge, naturally) has to be weighed (in the perspective of these kinds of families) relative to everything else. That is, the typical schedule of Johnny or Janey, Inc. is to attend 7 hrs. of school, engage in e.c.'s, go to tutoring, begin homework, sleep from about 10 pm to 2 a.m., then arise and continue to study without break until departure for school.</p>

<p>And you think, parents, that you’re in a rat race?
:D</p>

<p>EDITING to add:
There are vocational programs attached to certain high schools – there is one that I know of rather intimately – wherein the site schooled students have permission to leave the school during the day (I think in junior year) to take a particular vocational-type course of study, one course at time. However, it’s not at a community college. Students will not be excused from a traditional site school to be attending any comm. college. Rather, this is a vocational center with courses tailored to those with a vocational track in mind (vs. academic track). And to qualify for such a release from your site school, say 4 hours/week over a semester, you need to be maintaining a B average, have no discipline issues, etc.</p>

482

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<p>Contradiction.</p>

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<p>You should keep up with the times.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ncccs.cc.nc.us/State_Board/SBCC%20Agendas%20&%20Related%20Items/2010/FEB%202010/PROG%202a.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ncccs.cc.nc.us/State_Board/SBCC%20Agendas%20&%20Related%20Items/2010/FEB%202010/PROG%202a.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

483

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<p>I am extremely current, and clearly more so than you, when it comes to the States most impacted by the combination of density, competition, and public dollars. I’m not talking about North Carolina. Thus, there is nothing I am “not up with the times” about. I am reporting on extremely current conditions. Rather, it would appear that maybe some States could do a better job of partnership opportunities. OTOH, I know well that many in my region would welcome such partnerships, but again this is a matter of public dollars & a variety of priorities for those dollars. (I already provided you with an example of an opportunity, which is not a comm. college one; that opportunity is not limited to a particular public school, either, but is open to all the public schools in the greater region.)</p>

<p>Depart from the dense and hyper-competitive pockets, and opportunities abound.</p>

<p>For example, public dollars at the moment – stretched as they are – have tasks such as extremely low levels of functional literacy in those “graduating” from public high schools and attending community college in my region, a region with Extreme levels of tutoring and avid desires for besting the competition.</p>

<p>Different market forces, and educational and demographic realities, are at play in different areas of the country, determining how much any particular school, district, region, will be able to avail itself of novel opportunities – again, with public dollars. In fact, it’s rather absurd that this poster is ragging on me, one of the most outspoken in my field of education on behalf of innovation, as if I’m some kind of representative of archaic thinking or some kind of obstructionist. I’m instead rather known for my counter-educational-establishment efforts – on and off CC. Only he would know what motivates him to continue some unattractive effort to discredit the messenger rather than the culprit(s).</p>

<p>I think some of you do not understand that the families that some of us are well acquainted with – families hyper-focused on what they think or assume constitutes a “prepped” student (prepped for admissions, especially) – are not trying to find just “any” opportunities – i.e., the opportunities most logical to those who are sincere about individualized challenge. Rather, the families who fill up my local tutoring centers are goal-oriented, not student-oriented. Second, what they seek to do is to create outside of the site school the kinds of “extras” that they believe a good private school should or would offer; very often that is actually not the kind of thing that a comm. college would ever offer. They believe that they can get a private school advantage by paying only half of the private school’s tuition. (The combined tutoring hours typically enrolled in amounts to approx. half of a private school’s annual tuition.) But the additional advantage (they believe) is that their student will stand out in the public school environment when looked at for colleges, not having to compete with private school classmates.</p>

<p>But here’s the catch: The extracurricular “Private school” thus conceptualized is not the concept that most Elites are looking for, in a student. In some ways, there’s nothing “wrong” with the concept. (Though I criticize it for the most part, there are some good intentions mixed in: the parents believe that not enough specialized excellence is being demanded, and one can’t fault them for that perception.) But let me put it this way: it’s kind of like assuming that what today’s Women’s Colleges are looking for is girls from Finishing School. That might have been true in the past (certain eras, anyway), but that’s certainly no longer true. Many of the “incorporating” parents want a kind of “finishing school” via tutoring, combined with certain e.c.'s. The goal these parents seek is not what the Elites are necessarily seeking. </p>

<p>I know these populations well.</p>

484

<p>Everybody will get somewhere. What they do at that place will be much, much more important than the name of the school. You will be laughing at yourself 4 years from now and at same time be sad that you wasted so much energy on this instead of just enjoying the time. From a parent of college senior.</p>

485

<p>Yeah, I think almost everyone at my school gets tutoring for their tests, especially the SAT, so that no one is behind anyone else.</p>

486

<p>The excerpt from the Boston Glove article posted in this thread omitted a paragraph which I believe alters the context. Certainly it changed my perception of the remarks made by Inessa Rifkin, founder of the Russian School of Mathematicst:</p>

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I’m favorably impressed by Ms. Rifkin’s remarks. I’ve long told my children that “when and how” they convey all that “brilliance” of theirs is every bit as important as being brilliant. </p>

<p>You know, private tutoring and supplemental instruction programs provide an alternative to leaving public schools when faced with curriculum concerns. Private school isn’t an affordable or even a desirable option for every student. Neither is private tutoring. But I prefer more options to fewer options.</p>

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<p>I feel like an anachronism. Both of our DDs took the SAT and ACT without tutoring (and sent the scores off to their schools without looking at them first). Maybe it’s because we live in the midwest and not on the coasts where more tutors are (presumably) located?</p>

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<p>^^^both of mine used the four free reports and sent SAT and SAT-II scores (unseen) to their favorite schools. A leap of faith, but none of us gave a second thought about that decision.</p>

<p>No tutors here, just the Blue Book. Neither kid went through the entire book. S2 re-took it June of junior year and did ZERO prep between his first sitting in March and then (APs and IBs kept him more than busy). Scored 90 points higher. ;)</p>

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<p>So we also have small clusters of students trying to game the less-competitive public schools? Does this work any better? In the highly-competitive schools at least there is room for multiple admits to an elite school. The less-competitive schools will be lucky to land one kid in each of the elite college per year (and several offers may go to the very same kid).</p>

<p>It seems to me that any group working together at the same school will ultimately only end up competing with each other for those lone spots. While this small group may well stand head-and-shoulders above the other students in the school, the elite colleges are unlikely to risk more than grabbing one or two of the best from a school that has traditionally had mediocre stats overall. Perhaps more over time, but that doesn’t benefit the current applicants.</p>

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<p>overworked teachers - that’s a laugh. I have two words for the people drinking teacher’s union coolaid: SUMMERS OFF. Not to mention 5 weeks vacation during the school year, teacher institutue days, holidays, a mini break at Thanksgiving. No one with these kind of benefits can possibly be overworked.</p>

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<p>I’m quite sure that none of this went on in our high school. Although our school regularly sends kids to the most selective colleges, there was always a relatively laid back atmosphere - small classes from elementary to high school, APs reserved for junior and seniors (mostly seniors), challenging honors classes before that, no ranking, little overt competitiveness between students. While many, if not most of the kids around here had some kind of SAT tutoring, there was never anything remotely like what is being described here, ie intensive supplemental subject tutoring for already gifted students aimed at getting an edge. Thank goodness!</p>

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And I’d venture your school is much more the norm, roshke :wink:
In any case, at the end of the day, it pretty-much all boils down to your personal definition of “success,” doesn’t it? Different strokes for different folks.</p>

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<p>And I’d venture your school is much more the norm</p>

<p>^^^ It’s not exactly your typical HS… But my point was not to promote the place, just to say that there are schools that do well with college admissions where this kind of thing does not go on. Other things maybe , but not this!</p>

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<p>Kids of a few of my friends have been prepped for college since 7th grade. I find it sad and unfortunate that they do get an upper hand to those with parents who know nothing about college, or do not have the means to hire private tutors/counselors. At the same time, there is nothing anyone can do about it, and it isn’t necessarily wrong for parents to hire people to teach their children. </p>

<p>I don’t think that “normal” kids have to play the game, but they are definitely at a disadvantage. My son was a “normal” kid but he went out of his way to challenge himself and find opportunities that other kids did not do. In my experience, the kids who have private tutors and such do no go out and create opportunities for themselves.</p>

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I only meant with regard to the type of tutoring being discussed. I’m aware this sort of tutoring is going on in various schools, but I think it’s a long way from becoming the norm. That said, it won’t surprise me to see the trend grow, perhaps even change its stripes a bit. Dual enrollment has spread. It’s not that much of a stretch to imagine the option to take your math courses over at the local Kumon. High school “a la carte,” who knows?</p>

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<p>How much exactly do these tutors charge? If my son manages to get into HYPSM, maybe he should take a gap year first and make some college spending money by offering ACT/AP tutoring?</p>

497

<p>Ok so here is a question for everyone…how much of this behavior (tutors, prep courses, pre-gaming, etc.) is being driven by parents vs. students themselves??? </p>

<p>It seems that, at least on this thread, most people are saying that it’s the parents. I would say that students are equally or more to blame for all of this. At least when I was back in h.s. most of the kids that did these things had to beg their parents and convince them to let them do these things. Most of the parents generally weren’t that involved (compared to CC parents) and most probably didnt know what was needed for admissions…I’d say the majority (and i went to a top prep school where you’d expect parents would know more about this stuff than typical public school parents). </p>

<p>I think the competitiveness of admssions and the competition being bred at certain h.s. is what is really fueling this…parents are just being manipulated by their kids to believe that they need to do this to be competitive for HYPSM. </p>

<p>I myself did a lot of these things back in h.s. b/c i felt that I needed to in order to gain an edge…looking back on it…i feel silly and think it was a waste of time but it was my decision and not that of my parents.</p>

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<p>Around here, I’d say it’s the parents, who tend to be a highly educated lot and feel that a top education is the only ticket in this economy. The kids go along (though some have also drunk the Kool-Aid), with the hope they will regain the reins to their lives in college. Pretty sad.</p>

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<p>In this economy, I would say a lot more students in top tier schools are getting jobs right out of school compared to other lesser known schools. Many firms are cutting back on recruitment, and they are more choosy on which campus to recruit at.</p>

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<p>Tutoring companies which operate more on a shoestring (with not much brick-and-mortar, or sometimes none at all), and also companies which are newer, tend not to be as fussy about hiring those with no experience tutoring, and without a college degree. More traditional tutoring companies require B.A./B.S. and even some prior experience tutoring, but especially for test prep and AP.</p>

<p>But do not confuse the prices charged to the student (family) with what is paid to the tutor. Unless the subject is in high demand and the tutor can prove successful experience in that, the pay is not that great, because profits are going to the company, including those with zero brick-and-mortar. Pay can range from $12 to $60 (the latter for those with proven successful experience as test prep tutors, for example, or with a particular subject need, such as calculus, an AP science, a particular foreign language, etc.)</p>