<p>I was just trying to point out that some of the funding was restored to the UC’s. I’m not arguing the state of the California economy. Ugh. haha Just so you know… I’ve got three in college. Two in private universites and one in public. They are all doing just fine and there are pros and cons to each. </p>
<p>One other thing, I don’t think it is wise to generalize. My youngest could have gone anywhere and he chose Cal. He didn’t even want to apply to Stanford (hated the vibe on the campus) or the Ivies (not good enough in engineering). I know it seems hard to believe, but some students actually want to go to a large public research university. Different strokes for different folks.</p>
<p>And totally agree this is off topic… I’m off to make dinner!</p>
<p>Thanks to those bringing us back to the OP’s concerns. Just a clarification because I’ve been off the board: I wasn’t actually referring to public fees, but to public crowding, to class cutbacks, and to the resulting restrictions on freedom to take courses vs. those with legitimate priority. U.C. may be impacted more than many public systems, but they are by no means alone. Several states have similar problems – some of these relating to population changes and larger college populations (on a regular basis), but others relating to shifts from privates to publics due to ripple effect of economy on families cutting back.</p>
<p>It really does depend on a combo of factors, specific to the department & its popularity in real time, specific to funding that academic year for that department & its faculty, and the prerequisites for various majors, which differ considerably by college/U. In other cases those factors are immaterial because it will be stated that for certain classes one always needs to get permission from the prof, who will decide whether the student is ready for the work.</p>
<p>There are also many private colleges that have open enrollment policies with neighboring colleges (despite not being in the same “league,” etc.). But again in these cases such policies are normally subject to modification relative to full-time campus-enrolled students for that academic year. A blanket statement will not be accurate. In fact, my homeschooled students have often advantaged themselves of our local community colleges, but with the latter experiencing significant cutbacks in programs, as well as these institutions becoming increasingly more the default choice of h.s. grads, I’m not sure if open enrollment will hold for every local c.college campus next year. (Homeschooled families drift more toward certain campuses, less toward others, partly due to some safety and student body concerns.) And the State 4-yr system is no longer open enrollment even for h.s. grads; they are now introducing qualifying standards for several more campuses than previously.</p>
<p>Couple of brief comments on issues that have emerged since I last posted:
Flying lessons: don’t impress me. My dad always says that flying is easy as long as no one is shooting at you.
Boring math classes: We told QMP that a smart person could always find some aspect of a topic that was interesting. However, I disagree strongly with Pizzagirl that claims of being bored in math are artificial showing off. This is not true, given the way that math is taught in many places. There is only so much to be learned by solving the quadratic equation over and over. Once you’ve covered the possibility of complex roots, that’s it . . . until abstract algebra, but the number of young mathematicians who are going to invent it for themselves is extraordinarily small, and it’s usually a few years post-BC Calculus.
BCEagle and epiphany have covered many interesting aspects of the burden of proof. I will just add to their discussion that in science and mathematics, any student who is prepared for an upper-level course at any of the public universities of my Midwestern state can get into the class. This would include graduate classes. Pre-requisites that are listed in the catalog can be waived. Restrictions of some graduate classes to Ph.D. students can also be waived (although sometimes the professor has to be willing to write a letter to the Dean, to permit this). So apparent restrictions may not apply. On the other hand, it is impossible at my university for an undergraduate to take a graduate course in the College of Business. In engineering, the possibility of moving directly to a higher level depends on the specific “flavor” of engineering, and how “impacted” enrollment in that area has been. Generally, it would be more difficult in electrical engineering and systems science than in chemical engineering. In the arts areas, unusual undergraduates may take advanced classes, including graduate seminars, if they are accepted by the professor (normally based on interviews).</p>
<p>i got “tutoring” for the SAT, but mainly that was just me taking practice SAT tests under supervision so that i don’t run off to watch tv. i actually PREFER it when my teachers don’t teach, except maybe my physics teacher because he’s actually pretty good. i find it a lot more helpful to just read the textbook (and with physics too, except i’m too lazy and the teacher usually makes sense) </p>
<p>anyway, all i know is that i’m in the top 4% of a high school (we don’t rank really) that sends people to harvard, stanford, etc and has people who score 36 on the act, and close to 2400 on the sat. =)</p>
<p>i’m sure there are some people at my school that get tutored (i know of one), but the “top” students don’t. i’m pretty sure they don’t. and paying 150 bucks an hour is crazy. pay me that money! i can probably “teach”</p>
<p>And other restrictions may apply. There have been times in the past when policies were stricter at certain dept’s at certain U’s, other times when quite the opposite held true. It also used to be routine to be able to audit most courses, irrespective of age and enrollment status. That was prior to the Echo Boom, prior to contracted budgets, prior to a lot of things.</p>
<p>There is an additional huge hurdle for an enrolled student at a site high school: that is one of schedule. The likelihood that a course both challenging and accessible would be open to that student during a time the student could attend is another significant problem. It works to pick and choose open U courses when you are doing either Independent Study or homeschool. But none of this fits the kind of student that has dominated this thread: the student who is enrolled in a private, or possibly competitive public, from 7:30-ish to 3:15ish, and who additionally is likely to be heavily engaged in e.c.'s and off-site tutoring. This is just another reason that introducing this subject is O/T for the main theme of the thread.</p>
<p>Homeschoolers and I.S. students, many of whom I have taught, also do participate in tutoring, but interestingly, usually far less so than students at site schools. Such students tend to take advantage of tutoring for more frequent direct or supplemental teaching of otherwise independently-led courses. Lots of subjects can be pursued independently, but it often profits a student to get additional professional guidance, and the wiser students often sense that. Again, though, this has not been the subject of the thread. In this thread we are concentrating on site day students in traditional school settings, who choose (or whose parents choose) to supplement and/or preview school offerings with private paid instruction, and to do so, at times, as if on steroids.</p>
<p>Most of the evening college course offerings in my area are through community college and Extension Divisions of 4-year colleges, not through traditional 4-year colleges and U’s, the vast majority of which concentrate their course offerings during the day. Generally, the best opportunity for the class of students being discussed on this thread, to take a college-level course, is during summer. In fact, students can begin doing this during the summer before junior year and earn complete college credit for that. Some of my D’s classmates chose to do this. My own children far preferred other kinds of summer programs which did not merely pile on academic classes, but which offered opportunities for unique and creative explorations of arts and academics.</p>
<p>You know, every time the topic of community college classes come up, I struggle to imagine what CC classes a tip-top student would have the pre-reqs to take and which would be challenging, or more challenging than what’s offered in a competitive high school. There are certainly specialty courses, such as those which prepare one for a vocational certificate like radiography, that a kid could take. But from what I can tell, the CC classes in subects like business or social sciences tend to be well below the level and pacing of an AP. My kids each took one or two CC courses which were offered at the high school and found them to be less challenging than high school honors classes. They were geared toward average or even below average students. No offense, but around here that IS the type of student who usually attends CC. Furthermore, the CC kids a year or two out of high school who are taking math classes in CC are taking math at the level a top student completed in freshman or sophomore year of high school.</p>
<p>I agree, about CC classes in general TheGFG. And clearly, I think pre-gaming high school classes is a waste of time. </p>
<p>Part of PaperChaserPop’s original post referred to private tutoring or math camp for members of the math team at the school in his area. Locally, there is not much of that. Locally, there is not much participation in the USAMO, either–maybe 1 student every 5 years. I would suspect that the tutoring and math camps do not cover anything that will be tested in the math classes at a typical high school. There are some high schools where the top math track prepares a student well for the challenges of the AIME, USAMTS, USAMO, and beyond. These high schools are uncommon. If a student is not at such a high school, and can find someone who could help the student with contest math prep, or advanced math, I see nothing wrong with that and do not regard it as pre-gaming. (This does not happen locally, to my knowledge.) I agree with collegealum314’s much earlier post on this issue.</p>
<p>A bit off the original topic: I do not think that a student who is champing at the bit to go ahead in math should be held back due to fears about what can be done post Calc BC. If there is a nearby university, the student can often take classes there. Our local public school will release students during the regular instructional period (i.e., well before 3) to take university classes, if they have exhausted high school offerings, and many do take them. Not only that, but in our state, the high school is required to pay the tuition for the university classes. Your local school should be able to offer the former, if not the latter. Transportation and scheduling do remain a bit of a hassle, but not an insurmountable one. </p>
<p>If there is not a local university that will accept high school students, Stanford’s EPGY program offers math to a very high level, and I think that tuition waivers are possible if the cost is a challenge. </p>
<p>For competition math and for general math instruction (some of it quite beautiful), the Art of Problem Solving keeps getting better and better. They offer online courses, books, “math jams” (online problem-solving sessions), a community forum, and other resources. I have no connection with them, but I admire the work. AoPS doesn’t exactly level the playing field, but it makes it entirely possible for a student to work totally independently and become competitive in the national math contests.</p>
<p>epiphany, I agree that admission to college classes may depend on the field of the classes, and gave business and engineering as examples. However, a student who is interested in math or science can take anything for which he/she is qualified at my university and (I believe) anywhere else in the state.</p>
<p>All of my kids have taken CC courses. It depends on what you want to get out of them. Great students will get all they can out of these classes and mediocre students will do the minimum required to do well.</p>
<p>MAT 285 DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS - BUNKER HILL COMMUNITY COLLEGE</p>
<p>Course: Mat 285 Differential Equations (4 credits)
Meeting: D214 Tuesday and Thursday 3:55-5:35
…
Co-requisite: Mat 283 Calculus III
Text Required: A First Course in Differential Equations with Modeling Applications, 8th Ed. Dennis G. Zill</p>
<p>Linear Algebra - MTH 285 at Northern Virginia Community College</p>
<p>Covers matrices, vector spaces, determinants, solutions of systems of
linear equations, basis and dimension, eigenvalues,
eigenvectors. Designed for mathematical, physical and engineering
science programs. Prerequisite MTH 174 or equivalent. (MTH 174 is Calc
II)</p>
<p>Discrete Mathematics - MTH 286 at Northern Virginia Community College</p>
<p>Presents topics in discrete mathematical structures which are basic
tools used in computer science. Covers sets, Boolean algebra, counting
methods, generating functions and recurrence relations, graph theory,
trees, and an introduction to finite state automata. Designed for
mathematical, physical, and engineering science
programs. Prerequisite: MTH 174 or equivalent.</p>
<p>Engineering Thermodynamics is an introductory one-semester course with lecture, demonstrations, and computer simulations, designed for engineering and science students. Major topics include: concepts of thermodynamics; pressure; temperature; heat and heat transfer; properties of substances; density; extensive and intensive properties; First Law of Thermodynamics and its application; Second Law of Thermodynamics and its application; reversible and irreversible processes; the Clausius, Kelvin, and Planck statements of the Second Law; entropy and Carnot, Otto, Diesel, and Rankine cycles; power cycles and the refrigeration cycle.<br>
Upon successful completion of this course, students should be able to:
Understand the basic concepts and definitions needed to apply the laws of thermodynamics.
Describe the properties and behavior of a pure substance.
Develop the First Law of Thermodynamics and apply it to control volume problems.
State the Second Law of Thermodynamics and describe its significance to the analysis of cycles and processes.
Understand the concept of entropy and its relationship to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Analyze the operation of power and refrigeration systems.</p>
<p>PHYS 2250 Modern Physics 4 CR. A third semester physics course
covering topics from contemporary physics including relativity,
kinetic theory, quantum mechanics, nuclear, atomic, and molecular
theory and elementary particles. SPRING. Prereq: PHYS 1122, MATH
1520. MNTC: Goal 3. Physics 2250 is typically offered once each
academic year. </p>
<p>ENGR 1020 Introduction to Engineering Design, 4 CR. Develop skills
critical for practicing mechanical and electrical engineers. Extensive
exposure to visual, written and oral communication forms, and to
computer-based design tools. Substantial design projects, including
prototype construction. FALL, SPRING. Prerequisites: Math 1500 or
placement in MATH 1510. </p>
<p>ENGR 2235 Statics 3 CR FALL Vector algebra. Application of
equilibrium equations to analyze simple engineering structures and
machines. Nature, influence of friction. Elementary theory of
statically determinate framed structures. Deformation of structures
with axially loaded elements. Prereq: MATH1520, PHYS1121.</p>
<p>ENGR 2236 Dynamics 3 CR SPR Review of particle dynamics. Mechanical
systems and the rigid body model. Equilibrium, kinematics and dynamics
of plane systems. Technical applications. Prereq: PHYS 1121, MATH
1520 or concurrent registration.</p>
<p>Here’s a practice exam for an organic chemistry course at Salt Lake Community College:</p>
<p>Is an introduction to the theory and laboratory techniques in
molecular biology. A variety of topics relevant to the study of
molecular biology is introduced. The topics range from nucleic acid to
protein structures, from prokaryotic and eukaryotic genetic mechanisms
to the regulation of gene expression in these systems. This course
also includes the study of molecular techniques and their
applications.</p>
<p>Prerequisite:
BIO 101, BIO 211</p>
<hr>
<p>The quality and offerings of community colleges vary widely.</p>
<p>Good point, BCEagle91 (and to momma-three): I should have noted that CC course quality depends a lot on the CC, with state-to-state variations as well.</p>
<p>Our kids took dual-enrollment courses at a community college about 40 minutes away. It was a headache to provide transportation. We do have a community college that is 10 minutes away but I determined that the quality and level of the courses there were unsatisfactory. Our son has taken dual-enrollment courses at a variety of public and private universities too. The advantage of using a community college is cost - if you have an equivalent course at a university and community college, then you save a lot of money with the community college.</p>
<p>In California, I think that community colleges run about $30/credit hour or less. The UC system accepts the credits so I would assume that many of the community college courses are pretty good, especially in science and engineering.</p>
<p>In considering a course for dual-enrollment, I usually sent the professor a set of questions to get a feel for the course and if it would be worthwhile in terms of difficulty. I found that there are a lot of bad courses out there. If the quality of your local community college is poor, then it’s not a real choice - same thing with public schools.</p>
<p>If you do have a good local community college at low cost, say, in California, a student could just enroll in a two-year degree program and get most or all of it paid for with the American Opportunity Tax Credit.</p>
<p>theGFG,
Your HS may offer enough courses to satisfy advanced children, but that is not true in my area. My son took math courses, Latin, Macroeconomics, physics, etc at the local U. The U is probably no better than CCs in other areas, but the professors were good.</p>
<p>In middle school, the math teacher offered S books and let him self study. His initial HS math teacher pushed at County level to let him advance. His GC was the one to suggest he apply to college during his junior year. Son formed a math club and a very nice, nonmath teacher, drove them to places where math competitions were held.</p>
<p>My biggest fear was that he would not be prepared for the demands of college. On the other hand, he did not grow up with kids getting tutored for an edge. Only one friend took SAT prep course and hired a counselor. I don’t know anyone who did ECs to make themselves look better. When I talk to my friend in NE area, he has been discussing colleges and admissions since his oldest began HS.</p>
<p>While it is wonderful that my son could grow up without pressure to perform, my area sadly lacks colleges or research labs that would be of interest to him. All of his close HS friends are scattered too.</p>
<p>their 13-year-old daughter, McKenna, is preparing for the Los Angeles Marathon and has a second-degree black belt in tae kwon do; her twin sister, Taylor, has been dancing since age 3.</p>
<p>Today, Gavin is a 16-year-old award-winning inventor who’s finishing up applications for two prestigious science competitions. His entry is the Circuit-Hat Accessibility Device, an electronic hat that allows disabled people to use a computer without a mouse. When he’s not working on these kinds of projects, he’s performing improv comedy, leading a robotics team and heading his school’s foreign exchange club – and, of course, homework.</p>
<p>Well, this is a timely topic. The New York Times online today has an article “The Pros and Cons of the Tutor Stampede.” Personally, I think we covered the whole subject thoroughly here, but it’s interesting, anyway.</p>
<p>I’ll point out for those not actively in the math loop that USAMTS [USA</a> Mathematical Talent Search](<a href=“http://www.usamts.org/]USA”>http://www.usamts.org/) is for individual students and can be done without a school’s sponsorship. S1 did it junior year on his own because he wanted more experience with proofs. Found it quite challenging.</p>
<p>The USA Computer Science Olympiad [Programming</a> Contest](<a href=“http://www.usaco.org%5DProgramming”>http://www.usaco.org) also offers a free, online curriculum in serious algorithmic programming. There are multiple levels depending on one’s programming ability. One does NOT have to participate in the competitions to work through their syllabus. There are also alums who run help chats. S1 used the curriculum starting the summer after eighth grade and never ran out of things to learn. In fact, he also used it for preparation for the ICPC. This is another activity that doesn’t require mentors or school sponsorship unless one participates in the April qualifying round for the Olympiad selection process.</p>
<p>After my daughter’s graduation back in 2003 I heard about some students having been privately tutored to keep them competitive in the higher level classes even though the school had made it clear all along that a student was not allowed to be in those classes if they were regularly tutored. Until then I had only thought of tutoring as something for students who needed it to keep up in regular classes or a student who needed one on one to master a particular concept.</p>
<p>EVERYONE in our area prepped for the SAT and even though the whole prep industry is something I would love to see disappear, the D did it if only to keep the playing field even. I can see that in these few years it has all gotten even more serious. </p>
<p>Regarding an earlier post about math and science tutoring during college being imperative…Really? When DD got to college there were Bronx Science caliber students in the mix for the first time and she was no longer one of the top science students as she had been in high school. Such is life. Granted she was only a bio minor but she was a pre-med so she had a reasonable amount of exposure to the sciences and math. At her school I don’t think that tutoring was the norm or she would have mentioned it.</p>
<p>When she didn’t totally get a concept she would go to office hours or meet with a TA for clarification but most of the time being in study groups got her as far as her aptitude would let her go. (She did knock it out of the park in physics and felt pretty good about that.;))</p>