<p>“I am fine with the idea of enrichment and tutoring. I would rather see the money go to brain development than carting kids around all week to numerous sports that take away from the development of the mind.”</p>
<p>That is a pretty narrow view of the benefits of sports. The highest level of sports are all about the mind. It is a given that you must be physically fit, can you read a defense and counter it? can you set a pick or a double pick? Can you read a double pick and shift from man-to-man to a zone on the fly? Can you signal in a three-count pick off play at second from the catcher to the pitcher, short stop and center fileder without the opposing team deciphering it? Can you develope a strength, conditioning and nutritional plan that works for your metabolism and put it into practice? Do you know the differences between protein from animal products and soy? Do you even know what these athletes are talking about? Our athletes are expected to do all that, support their team mates, their communities and take 10 APs. It takes a strong mind to manage one’s time.</p>
<p>Health (sleeping enough and for kids it usually means more than 10 hours a night, eating well, enough exercise, enough rest, good motor functions), social skills and learning to play nicely with others and win and lose graciously, free play, close family relationships and ethic. By the way, those are also things that really matter then it comes to success as adult. Child who doesn’t sleep enough, eat right, have enough down time and free play and time for social things will not have a best possible chance to develop their brains. First to suffer is creativity.</p>
<p>There is only 24 hours a day for everyone. Every time you decide to increase study time, you take time from somewhere else.</p>
<p>Twenty years from now, is it really going to matter if my kid had a perfect score on the SAT? Or a 5 on every AP test? Quite frankly, no one is going to care. And, in my experience, the only time my impressive alma mater ever mattered was in securing my first job on Wall Street (but come to think of it - the guy hired with me graduated from Southern Illinois U and I think he is now a senior VP). If a child wants to join the relentless pursuit of academic perfection - fine. But I would hate to push my child to compete in that arena, if his/her heart and passion really lay somewhere else (sports, arts, making friends, having a life).</p>
<p>MLM, I have weighed in abundantly on this thread. Please read all my posts. Until I got to my last one, I wasn’t even discussing LD kids, and that was clear. Some of you are not reading the thread carefully before you just jump in. My last post merely added to something another poster had introduced, thereby expanding examples of the increasing market for tutoring.</p>
<p>I’m certain that many ‘untutored’ kids do just as well as their tutored counterparts…just as well with a lot less effort and stress. There are many kids who are super-intelligent and so naturally talented that they just don’t have to work as hard as the rest of us mere mortals. :)</p>
<p>Seriously, I know several families where all the kids got into Ivies and never required a day of tutoring, nor any amount of parental pushing. They were kids with natural ability and really didn’t need to break a sweat to be the best in their classes - and all were in IB programs.</p>
<p>Do you assume that children have no internal passions, and are totally “other-directed” or parent-directed? </p>
<p>I definitely think that when a child makes it obvious that he or she is a born dancer or musician, that we ought to teach that kid a lesson and refuse to allow him pursuit of a passion just to make a point about balance in life. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I wonder if the poster has met any human being who has been able to combine gracefully pursuit of passion with normal range of experience…</p>
<p>denise515, yes I escaped the insanity. I only sent my children to one year of preschool so that I could spend more time with them playing outside, going to the park, coloring, etc. I only allowed one outside activity per child at a time so I wasn’t driving constantly to multiple activities. When they all found that one activity that was really important to them, I drove without complaint and gave them 100% of my support. We had a nice relaxed family life with dinner time, bath time, and story time every night. There were no tutors to stay at the top, no pressure to take AP’s, and no mention of participating in clubs to pad their resume. The clubs and volunteer activities they selected were all things in which they had interest. All my kids were different, all chose a different path to college, and I was completely supportive of their choices. And no, I am not surprised by all the tutoring to stay at the top. It’s just an unfortunate sign of the times in this high pressure society.</p>
<p>NervusBreakdown, it’s completely possible to do better than the tutored kids. It happens all the time (happened with my youngest), but here’s the important part… it doesn’t matter. Do your best. That’s all you can do and in my house (and hopefully in your house too), that is good enough. Good luck!</p>
<p>Again I’m going to dispute that it’s not possible to balance high achievement with a normal family life. We did it. Without tutoring, with extracurriculars. I agree with momfirst3 that priorities do have to be set, and choices made. So that prevented our family from allowing both performing arts and sports simultaneously. That would have been pure insanity. (I also limited it to one principal activity.) But I don’t want to contribute to hijacking here. The OP wants to concentrate on tutoring.</p>
<p>Just understand, parents, that not necessarily all of those enrichment-tutored kids go on to Ivies and other Elites. A few do, but I’ve looked at the results in my region, which can be categorized as “insane” in the tutoring department. It makes a difference in college admissions for a small handful of students. The rest get into fine schools which sometimes do, sometimes do not, include top 20. In general, the students who are naturally brilliant without the need for tutoring, and with serious achievement in extracurriculars (without sacrificing sleep), are the ones who are admitted to the U’s that the tutored students want to be admitted to.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s really sad if this is your only goal in life, or if you equate that with happiness, because you may be surprised that the latter can’t be purchased.</p>
<p>I agree with you Epiphany, it’s possible to balance high achievement and family life. My youngest was a nationally ranked athlete and class rank #1. He was crazy busy and we did have to travel for his sport. However, we still had dinner time and a normal family life. Oh, no tutoring for my family either. It wasn’t needed.</p>
<p>This is how I feel about tutoring… If a child needs it because they are having trouble with a subject, I have no problem with it whatsoever. For those who can afford the SAT tutoring, good for them. We couldn’t afford that so all my kids self studied. The tutoring I have trouble with is the type that helps A students become A+ students. It’s the pressure filled type. The type where tutors are just hired for every subject to make sure that the child receives the highest A possible even if they could have received an A without it. I think this type of tutoring sends a message that one’s best isn’t good enough and that’s not a message I think should be sent. Our kids need to know that their best is good enough so they they are content and happy with who they are. Doing one’s best is important. Being the best is not.</p>
<p>Wow, what an interesting thread this is! I am a public high school teacher from a small (approx 1,000 students) rural district with only one high school (closest private is over an hour away in good weather). We teach to a very diverse student body–but mostly a small “elite” crowd that go on to pretty good colleges with a few making the HYPSM every year, and the rest being very average or extremely below average. Our AP classes are open access, meaning that anyone can sign up. All AP’s have a small group that are way over their heads.</p>
<p>I have noticed that a few students get private tutors just to “keep up” with their desired crowd. I hate to say it but it is mostly the parents that have the self-esteem issue (please don’t get me wrong, this is very unique to our area). The parents are the one’s who need to compete–small town, so everyone knows everyone’s business. From my experience, these kids with velcro parents rarely get into a university any “better” than they would have gotten into on their own. This may be a result of colleges having lower expectations of them since there are not a lot of opportunities for research, amazing math teams, or many of the other things many people mentioned.</p>
<p>I also find that many parents have unrealistic ideas of what it takes to get into a decent university–I believe this is from the media. They think it is impossible to get into a UC without being ultra-competitive. They put so much unnecessary stress onto their kids–it’s kind of sad. I know the elite universities are different, but your kid has to have some natural ability to begin with–no tutor can overcome this.</p>
<p>This being said, I wouldn’t hesitate to get my child a tutor if she was having a lot of difficulty with a subject or had a teacher that was unclear. But I also know most super-bright students are able to overcome these difficulties in other ways. Our best students always form study groups and literally have study parties before big tests. AP teachers always provide at least 8 hours (and yes we get paid by the district) of outside prep the week before AP Exams–coordinating meeting times so as not to get in the way of each other. There is also a lot of pizza involved and a lot of fun. We require every student who takes an AP to take the exam (and do not allow students to drop an AP once they have begun) so I cannot say we get a lot of those prized 5’s. BUT we do get 5’s in every subject and I believe the majority of those kids did not have private tutors.</p>
<p>Our school also provides free after school tutoring by NHS kids and our local CC offers free tutoring every afternoon by the math club students. I know this isn’t as good as a top private tutor but it does allow those who are unable to pay a little leveling of the playing field.</p>
<p>So, I guess this is really just an issue in urban areas with good private schools or areas with upscale neighborhoods and high achieving public schools. The colleges just expect more out of the kids and the parents are forced to do what it takes.</p>
<p>“fact” should be able to be supported by data. Is it? </p>
<p>-Our discussion is useless for most here. Apparently you are very remote from the topic, since there is tons of statistical info in this area at each UG.</p>
<p>One big difference that I’ve seen is the amount of help available to kids at prep and boarding schools vs public schools. When my kids have attended prep and boarding schools, the teachers were often available for extended periods of time. They will meet with a student having trouble with something until the student gets it-- and that may be a 3 hour after school sitting. That’s pretty rare in my highly-ranked suburban school district. Generally, the most helpful teachers will say they are available before or after school and then 20 kids mob the teacher. Usually, you can get one question answered but not much more. (If you arrange it ahead of time, the teacher may meet with you for about 15-20 mins as a one-time thing.) There are quite a few adults who support themselves as full-time tutors to our school community. This is particularly common in math. (One of my daughters was hospitalized and when she returned to school and asked the math teacher for help, the teacher responded that her union contract didn’t require her to reteach the material!) At the same time, when my d took AP Chem, she was the only student who did not have a parent who was a full-time science professional. So no, those kids didn’t have tutors but, in a way, they had much more help than a 1-hour a week chem tutor: they had full-time live-in tutoring assistance. </p>
<p>This is a completely separate issue, of course, from kids who tutor the entire subject before taking it to ensure As. I am not fond of that but, at the same time, if I thought my kid needed that help to get through a required class (not to earn an A but to earn something better than a D), I would do it. The kids who tutor the class ahead of schedule to ensure As are of the same ilk as the kids who took years of a foreign language and enroll in first semester language in college-- they can make the curve completely unfair (which is part of why I dislike curves). </p>
<p>Many moons ago in another country, my mother had a professor who prided himself in how difficult he made his exams. When most of the class failed his required course, the students protested to the university and the university made him reteach the class for FREE. They told him it was his job to teach the students and if so many had failed, it was he who hadn’t done a good job. I realize there are exceptions but when students (or an entire community) have to rely on a tutor as a supplemental teacher because their teacher is so bad, there is a huge problem.</p>
<p>Momfirst, WE TOOOOO!!! We managed to choose differently. Allowing our kids to chose ONE sport per season and encouraging them to find something arts related to supplement. </p>
<p>Our eldest son didn’t like sports so he played around with art, music, and theater. He did about six months voice lessons and about a year of bass lessons. He proceeded to join choir and theater full time starting in middle school. He received no other formal training. He taught himself three instruments and got chosen for select choirs in high school. He started landing roles on stage with other children who’d had YEARS of outside training. He’s now in college on scholarship. He also plays for two local bands and is a session musician for others. I often wonder where he would have gone if we had invested more money into his talent development.</p>
<p>Our other son has played one sport since 7. He chose which one. We have chosen for him to play with smaller and more affordable clubs. He went to camps here and there. He also picked up an instrument. He’s had lessons now for about four years. He’s an outstanding drummer but has less passion for his sport which he now views more as a hobby. We’ve invested much more time and money into his endeavors compared to our other son. But because he does not have the drive his brother does we are not sure what he’ll do with the talent he has and the instruction he’s received. </p>
<p>If I sounded ‘bitter’ before it’s because the pressure to spend the money and invest the time is OVERWHELMING. Most of my previous post was based on what we’d seen OTHERS around us do. Meanwhile, I’m both happy that we chose differently but also sometimes wonder if moderation was the best choice. </p>
<p>But then I’m one who felt that after seven hours of school that kids needed down time just to be kids. No tutors needed for that…at least not yet.</p>
<p>denise515, I didn’t think your previous post (#138) was bitter at all–it seemed wryly funny to me, and all too true. We escaped the worst (but not everything) by living in the Midwest. We spent the year before QMP’s kindergarten year in California on the SF peninsula. There, QMP’s young friends were being interviewed for private schools, while QMP only needed to show up for “kindergarten round-up” at our local public school. Worlds apart!</p>
<p>Hahaha!!! You are not alone! Stay strong!!! Do not cave to the pressure! We live in a very high pressure area of South Orange County in California. Parents spend THOUSANDS on college prep tutors, college admissions counselors, and sports camps. They have their child involved in every conceivable activity. There were times that I felt like I was from a different planet. I totally chose a different way, and to be honest, there were very few in my area that made the same choice. I was convinced that my late maturing oldest was going to live a life of menial labor after watching the parents of his valedictorian friends! He is graduating in two months and doing very well in his job hunt. I can’t tell you how gratifying it was to watch my youngest surge to the top of the class and pass all these ridiculously driven and pushed students. He spent all of high school in the shadows, quietly being the best at his sport and holding the top spot in his class. No one even knew he was #1 in the class nor that he was nationally ranked; that’s how unassuming he was. Finally senior year he was acknowledged for all he had done, both athletically and academically. The best part was how happy his classmates were for him. They were so happy to know that the “normal” kid was at the top of the class. It all worked out in the end…</p>
<p>The funny part is even my kids chose to not play the game… My oldest went to community college for a year before transferring to a university, my daughter only took the AP classes she was interested in and ignored all the hype of the GPA Bump, and my Ivy qualified youngest decided not to even apply to those schools and selected the top UC for engineering. Everyone thought he was nuts, but he just said, “I don’t want to go to school back there so why should I apply and take a spot from someone else.” Watching them make their own decisions has been my best parental paycheck. I may still feel like I’m from another planet, but my alien children seem to be doing just fine on Earth! :-)</p>
<p>QM, location is not the issue: the family’s priorities and lifestyle are set by the family. Yes, it’s difficult to resist the environmental pressure, but plenty of people have done it, still do it, such as a few of us who have owned up to that.</p>
<p>Btw, if anyone is curious as to the data supporting my earlier assertion that admissions results do not necessarily equate with tutoring, many tutoring centers actually list colleges admitted to (just as many schools do), and some even go so far as to publish the names of those students, and whether they received multiple admissions. So my reference point is those centers that do so in my highly competitive region.</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying, denise, and for elaborating, momfirst3.</p>
<p>The one area in which I will agree with MiamiDAP is that the standard public school math classes can leave a lot to be desired (depending on that location), for a student who is exceptional & ambitious in the math area. (Not true of my own children.) For a student seeking true math stimulation, he or she is unlikely to discover that in any of our local area schools; thus, for those students, math enrichment may become virtually a “necessity,” particularly if there aren’t other opportunity areas in other subjects in which he or she can excel.</p>
<p>I believe in balance, yes, but not boredom. If a school is not providing resources for high-level achievement for capable students, I see nothing wrong with looking for it elsewhere.</p>
<p>Well, I applaud the people who’ve resisted the environmental pressure. I have to say that I am glad we were not tested by it–we, at least, might well have succumbed, if in a different environment.</p>