Competition order?

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Kaysmom..no the prizes dont matter to me..but winning does. Sorry if that makes me a bad mom, but I would like her to have the opportunity to win and it just seems like going that early will not be helpful.</p>

<p>So Razorback..do you tend to find that the folks who go later win..or has it been your experience that the best man wins in general?</p>

<p>Anyway she knows she is just going to have to make a very strong impression, hopefully the judges will judge fairly. On a good note..most of them judged the prelims so they will be familiar..</p>

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<p>Angst, it really depends on how the competition is run. I know that for some auditions and competitions where there are so many kids, it is not favorable to be last, as the judges are tired, they have run over time, they have heard the same danged thing so many time, and you are now competing against everyone who came ahead ofyou.</p>

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<p>I don't think it makes you a bad mom in the least! You just want the best for your daughter. I wouldn't even mention to her, her chances with respect to her placement. Just tell her to do her best! I'm sure they are very knowledgeble judges who would never intentionally be effected by a singer's order. If this was a prevalent problem, then the first 5 singers of the 10 would not even bother to compete! Tell her best of luck!</p>

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<p>it just varies. no, i don't think the best man always wins. a number of factors go into it. those judges are only human. some of them like brunettes better than blondes and that affects them whether they want it to or not. some kid will remind them of their daughter........it's rarely completely fair simly because of the human element. it really just depends on how the judges were gotten.....are they local?, do they know any of the competitors?, are they really qualified? we did a contest where one of the judges had judged a bikini contest and that was his main qualifier. there's just no way to predict it. you just have to go, do your best, give yourself an edge if you can, and go into it knowing that it probably won't be what you'd like it to be. so, does the best man win? it just depends on the contest and how it's run. we've been in some good ones and some lousy ones. your only compensation is to cross the lousy ones off your list.</p>

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<p>This is a lousy competition. We knew that the first year. Each year they learn though and they adjust things so they are trying to make it work. (Less and less kids do it each year and less people come though its still packed)
I think this year will make or break it. (We try to look at it like a chance to perform..as the competition part has been really whacky at the finals but as you all can see I am not suceeding as well as I would like)
I wish I could chill and be cool and not get so caught up in this stuff..you all know I deserve my name here.
She has been doing these types of things since she was little..I have gotten better..I know that they are not fair period. But it still bugs me.
Anyone have tips on how to be a handle these things better.</p>

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<p>My kids have all done several dance competitions, and some vocal ones (although the vocal competitions have been through State Associations and NATS). They have been through the whole gamut of placements and scoring. A few years back my younger daughter did a jazz routine one week and scored a Silver Medal. The next week she did the SAME routine, SAME level of enthusiasm and stage presence, etc., and scored Platinum and High Score of the Day. The same has happened with my other daughter. </p>

<p>After several of these types of competitions we decided we had had enough and don't do them any more. We have seen too many scores go up and down depending on the time of day, what teacher a student studies with, etc. Nothing in this business, whether auditions or competitions, is always fair. EVERYTHING is totally subjective. It totally depends on who is judging, how they feel, whether or not somebody reminds them of their own children, whether or not they have children and are resentful that maybe a competitor's talent is greater than their own child, etc., etc., etc. (I think you can get the picture).</p>

<p>Again, like I posted earlier, it depends on the level of the comps. If you're not getting a "warm and fuzzy" about the comp your daughter is doing, then let her finish what she started, but don't do it again. I wouldn't, however, let her know how you feel or let her read this thread. Let her know how much you love her--win, place or draw--and go onto bigger and better things next year.</p>

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<p>"She has been doing these types of things since she was little..I have gotten better..I know that they are not fair period. But it still bugs me.
Anyone have tips on how to be a handle these things better."</p>

<p>Since you already know that these things aren't fair, but still want to do them, then you have to go into them not expecting anything. Just let your daughter know how much you believe in her, tell her that this business isn't always "fair" (actually rarely is), and let her sing her heart out and enjoy it for enjoyment's sake. Someone will see and hear her and her talents won't go unnoticed. It might not be noticed via awards, but she'll know she's made an impression if somebody commends her later. Gratification has many faces, not always via award recognition.</p>

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<p>"Anyone have tips on how to be a handle these things better."</p>

<p>Think about how you guys approach this experience. If she approaches it as an opportunity to perform because she loves to perform and an opportunity to experience auditioning but not expecting anything and if it happens that she wins, it is an added benefit, may be the way to go. In this field, when you get to very competitive things like auditions and such, you can't expect to come out on top. You can try your best and there is not much more you can ask. If you don't succeed, it has still been an opportunity to gain experience and assess what to do next time. Sometimes you can be utterly fantastic and still not come out on top. This field is FULL of such "disappointments" and in order to truly make it, you have to just accept that and move onto the next thing. If the object is not winning the prize as you say, then look at it as a chance to get out there in your local area...be seen, be heard, enjoy the moment....give it a shot at the contest....use it as another notch in the "experience" ladder...and that's it. </p>

<p>The other thing is that if you have participated in this event before and you feel it was unfair or poorly run, then reassess if it is worth entering such an event again. Pick and choose what to audition for. Perhaps go for state or national singing auditions/awards with specific adjudicating criteria/standards and opt out of anything that you don't see as totally "kosher" as you say has been the case with this "contest" she is doing. That is another option. Only get involved with experiences that feel "good" to be a part of. If it leaves a bad taste, don't do it again. If she merely doesn't win, that is a different story and go back to my first paragraph of how to deal with that. </p>

<p>You can't win everything and if you are secure in your self confidence and self assessment of your talent, then you just go on and try something else again. You don't get knocked down by not winning. As I said, go INTO it NOT expecting to win. I would say that of selective college auditions....give it your best effort and walk out knowing you gave it your best shot and that is all you can do. Realize how competitive it is going into it and that not everyone will be chosen and it is not necessarily a commentary as to whether you are "good enough" or "talented" if not chosen. </p>

<p>Your daughter sounds like a talented singer and one contest is not gonna change that fact. If she is secure about herself and her talent and if she is very passionate about singing, then she will enjoy just participating and performing. If she will only be happy to win, then it is a set up for disappointment. If she is worried about people remembering her....that is not really necessary because if she loves to perform for her own enjoyment, that is what will matter. If she stands out but does not win, people will remember her, as well. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>"Think about how you guys approach this experience. If she approaches it as an opportunity to perform because she loves to perform and an opportunity to experience auditioning but not expecting anything and if it happens that she wins, it is an added benefit, may be the way to go"</p>

<p>Susan this is EXACTLY what I want to do. But I dont seem to be successful at it.
Knowing this event is generally unfair we said we would approach it this year with that in mind. BUT no matter what I "say" to myself...these thoughts go through MY mind (she has the right attitude thank goodness)</p>

<p>I know I need to have that approach but I just dont, no matter what I say to myself. </p>

<p>I will say I have gotten better. For example since she attends the arts school ALL the kids from the county can try out for her plays whereas she cant try out for theirs. This really has alot of parents annoyed..but I feel the competition is fine, because this is what she wants to do so she should be able to compete with anyone.</p>

<p>Hmmm you know I am going to take that approach from now on..No matter what order she is slated for she should be able to blow them away..No matter what she comes up against she should be able to handle it and its all good training. </p>

<p>I will try ...</p>

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<p>angstridden-</p>

<p>Just a couple of points, (my opinion) take it for what it's worth.</p>

<p>I have judged at festivals, (State Thespian included). The order would never matter to me. The standards are provided to the judges and points are given. In the end the points are tallied and placements made. If you are going to "blow the judges away" you'll do it no matter what order you are in. </p>

<p>I tell my students that you can practice and practice and be totally prepared and then something happens during the time that you are in that room in front of the judges. We are human beings and things happen. For some unknown reason we go flat or sharp, forget our lyrics, get overly nervous, etc. and sometimes we go in and knock them dead. That is the reality of it. I have been a performer for a very long time and no matter how long I have been doing it I am human and there are times I don't perform at the level I wished I had.</p>

<p>I do believe that if we put stress upon ourselves to perform because we have to "win", whether it is for ourselves or someone else, it can make the audition process harder. You have to go in with the attitude that it doesn't matter what the outcome is. You have to free yourself up from the pressure. You have to go in knowing you are going to do the very best you can in the few minutes you are in that room. The most important thing is that when you are done, and you walk out of that room, you can say to yourself I did my best today and hopefully I learned something new. If you know that in your heart you don't need the trophy, certificate, or whatever it might be. You just have to know you did your personal best and gained something from the experience. That way you can sleep at night, live with less stress and pressure, and know that there's always another audition, festival, adjudication, or performance. You'll continue to "grow" as a performer.</p>

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<p>WCT-
What a great post. Thanks for all of us.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your insight. I really appreciate this. Most competitions I feel ok do your best and what happens happens..I guess this one has me wanting the "win" because of certain things that have happened in the past. </p>

<p>Anyway I got to thinking about it and realized I need to take the approach that I do with the plays ...I need to just say ..hey if she is going to do this professionally then what happens will happen and whatever order she is in she should be able to bowl em over. I just hope the judging is fair this year.</p>

<p>She is feeling fine about it. She is excited! And my new attitude has me feeling much better.</p>

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<p>Just one other thought for you.....remind your daughter that even when there IS criteria, it still is a subjective process, no matter how "fair" the judging is. It still involves an element of personal judgement and evaluation and what an adjudicator likes or does not like. </p>

<p>I'll give you one example. In our state, as in many, we have All States Music Festival and both my kids have been in it. To get in for All State Chorus, it involves singing a classical piece but it is done in a quartet (meaning you are somewhat at the mercy of the quartet as a whole) and I think each kid in the quartet gets to sing a little bit of the piece solo. Individuallly there is some sight singing too. Besides auditioning for All States itself, there are also Scholarship auditions (where you do sing alone) in classical voice, plus there are ones for jazz and ones for classical instrumentalists. There are a few winners per category in the entire state and it is a pretty high honor. You have to sing several songs alone for that, on the same day as auditioning just to get into All States. Freshman year, my younger D only auditioned to get into All States (for Chorus). She got in. Soph year, she auditioned for All States (chorus), All State Scholarship for Voice (classical), and All State Scholarship for Jazz (as a vocalist but judged along with jazz musicians, same category). She won the All State Scholarship for Voice and the Honorable Mention for the All State scholarship for Jazz (only vocalist) BUT did not get into All States ITSELF! The festival director found it highly unusual...first that a kid would win scholarships in two categories (not sure it had been accomplished before) but that she was not accepted into All States itself (kinda weird to win the "higher achievement"). He told our school and my daughter that. At the All State Festival, he even announced how rare it was for a kid to win a state scholarship in two categories and it was strange when she had to come up from the audience as she was not in the All State performance. By the way for the score sheet for getting into the Chorus she had perfect scores on sight reading but again, the auditoin for it mostly consisted of singing in a quartet for that (unlike individually for the scholarship auditions). This year, she auditioned for All State Chorus and for the All State Scholarship for Jazz. She won the All State Scholarship for Jazz (one of a handful in the state to win, but only vocalist) but again did not make it into the chorus. Again, strange to all who knew. How to you win the higher or much more selective award but not get into the chorus? </p>

<p>But I know how. You see, there are judges who judge who gets into All State Festival but on the same day, different judges judge the scholarship auditions. What these results seem to show is that some judges gave her the top award in the state but the judges to get into the chorus did not score her as highly in that audition. Different judges can make a difference. I am not sure how you win the top state award for classical voice but can't get into the classical chorus. It did not matter because she certainly was very happy to be so honored but I am relating this to you to show you that judging has a subjective element. What one judge liked, another must not have. And that is kinda like college auditions. You get in some places, you don't get in others. Your talent may remain constant but there is a subjective aspect to this. </p>

<p>If your daughter can realize that all you can do is do your best and if you can come out of the experience saying, wow, I really did my best in there, what more can you do or want? You might even BE the best and still not win it. Winning it should not be the goal. Otherwise, there are gonna be a lot of disappointments along the way. </p>

<p>For years, my daughter was cast every time she auditioned and frankly, I was kinda glad when at one point, she finally did not get cast in one audition and I felt that it was good to experience the reality of that as it will happen lots in this field. That time had to do with her size (was told that) and you know, that is why you just have to believe in yourself, do your best, and chalk each audition and each contest up as another experience. The more you do it, the better you get. If you are outstanding, it will show, whether you win or not. </p>

<p>Remember for someone who is passionate about performing, the rewards can be just from the performance and the thrill of that experience and sharing oneself with the audience. You don't need a prize to get that kind of zest of connecting with your audience. The performance itself can be the reward. I just came from seeing my daughter sing a song in front of the entire school and then the whole school got up and gave her a standing ovation. It was no contest. There was no prize. But there was that sense of sharing one's passion with the audience and having the audience relate back to you as a performer. I think for someone passionate about performing, that is what it is about. If your daughter shines in that contest and connects with the audience and gets a reaction, she will have won INSIDE. Giving to the audience is why many people choose to perform.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>I think as parents, Angst, we always want our children to have the optimal chance to win, and it is understandable that any disadvantage even if it may only be perceived, and even if it is unavoidable is going to bug you. It bugs all of us to some degree but we take a deep breath and take it in stride. I remember some moms who were outraged at a violin audition that included sightreading when the kids who were later in the process were advantaged because you could hear the playing while waiting your turn and everyone played the same danged unannounced sightreading piece. Yeah, kids like my son who were at the end of the line with excellent ears and memories (hurray to the Suzuki method for that!) had the piece memorized by the time they were up, and my son was a terrible sight reader those days. So he made out that time. There were times when he was not so lucky and got the short end of the stick, I assure you. I know I did not feel so great when S was complaining about the guy falling asleep during his audition as I had left the house at the crack of dawn to get him to the danged thing, only to find out that he was the very last one scheduled in that session, and the auditioners were wiped. I also knew from sitting with the other parents and hearing the feedback from the early kids who auditioned that the earlier kids were given generous time allotments and alot of interest from the auditioning panel whereas they were looking at their watches, yawning when my son's turn came up. I assure you that I did not feel so happy with that feedback that day. But I took a deep breath and said, "them's the breaks" and that there was going to a lot more of that coming up, because that is the truth. But it always hurts when the breaks don't go the way of your child's. Like labor pains, inevitable with motherhood.</p>

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<p>What a odd occurence with respect to All-State!!! Our state has regionals first and then if you get a high enough score, you are permit to audition for All-State (from scratch). All of the auditions involve singing solo to a music minus one tape (ugh) a classical art song, scales and sight singing. The All-State has a choral number but the other three parts are taped and you are the only one singing. Having to sing in a quartet seems so unfair!
Another thought with respect to chorus versus solo - as my daughter struggles to "blend" in her choral efforts - dramatic soloists rarely blend well in a choir.</p>

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<p>"Having to sing in a quartet seems so unfair!"</p>

<p>That's nothing if it's only for competitions. My poor daughter (the strongest soprano in the school) had to do her final exam in choir this year in a quartet, believe it or not. Talk about unfairness! She did quite well (scored 100%), but I thought it was very unfair for the others to get the same score based on my daughter's strength. I took it up with the school principal who told me right out it was at the discretion of the music teacher!</p>

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<p>To Ablestmom:</p>

<p>"Another thought with respect to chorus versus solo - as my daughter struggles to "blend" in her choral efforts - dramatic soloists rarely blend well in a choir."</p>

<p>My daughter also had a lot of trouble learning to "blend" in with the choir. Her voice teacher told her right out that some voices make gorgeous choir sounds while others are more suited for solo work. Since she believed my daughter was definitely in the latter category, she worked for a long time in getting her to differentiate between the two so as to make a good chorus member, and it's worked!</p>

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<p>i don't know what kind of contest this is, but it sure sounds like many we've done. they're not even close to those regulated school competitions many of you are discussing. unfortunately, these local talent competitions are not judged by college professors or high school choir teachers. they may be judged by the local mayor or the home depot owner. it's just a different ballgame. based on what you've said about past years, it sure sounds like many we've experienced. there's just no way to predict those outcomes. and yes, i'm so much more wanting the win than my d. she just takes it better than me. i understand completely how you're feeling. i have no words of wisdom for you except to remember that in the end, her talent is still hers. and those who win "unjustly" will win that one contest and probably nothing else. my d often says, i get to do lots of stuff and win lots of things, but that may be the only thing that person ever wins. like i said, she handles it much better than me. i only want to destroy whoever beat her. lol!!! best of luck to you, you've gotten lots of good advice. take a little of all of it and go into it with your eyes open and hopefully it will turn out right.</p>

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<p>ABlestMom....You did hit on one thing my D has said about winning the state awards the past two years but not getting into the state chorus at the same event and same audition date. She said that she is more of a solo singer, not a chorus singer. And that likely partly explains it too. Like I said, she got perfect scores on the sight reading both times. But the audition is in a quartet and also there is the element of how the whole quartet performs (just by the nature of that) and you do get to sing some lines in the piece yourself or she has said that each judge is assigned to listen to one kid in the quartet. She has made it into regionals every year and was once a soloist in that event. I recall one chorus judge writing on the sheet that she has a Broadway sound and um, yeah, she does, that is what she does! Not surprising. On the other hand, she did win the top classical voice scholarship in the state but that audition involved three solos (no quartet) so I guess she can sing classical but her voice is likely not an ideal chorus voice. She has played more parts in musicals than ensemble too. Last night in the chorus concert at school, in one song she soloed and it was a gospel song and her voice is very loud and bellows through the auditorium (has been like this since a little girl....my dad used to call her Ethel Merman) and I noticed that another solist in the same song who likely has a lovely voice, just did not come across the same cause it was more of a chorus voice and did not sound gospel or with any mood but I am sure was vocally fine otherwise (she is not theatrical). So, my D even realized that the adjudicator in those two chorus auditions may not have liked that she did not have as much of a choral voice because frankly, I can see her voice standing out in a group of four...it is not soft or meak sounding and she also has studied voice whereas the others in the quartet had not. It is not far fetched that she did not sound as blended. Now, the boys in the quartet got into All States, lol....because each kid is graded and there is a cut off score for a girl alto to make it, another cut off for a girl soprano and same with tenors and basses and the cut off for the boys was much easier or lower than for her category so that is how it works in our state. It is not like she minded because frankly winning the scholarship awards the past two years was a more significant accomplishment for her as so few kids in the state get one. This year at All States, the governor handed her the scholarship. The day of the auditions, as well, was the same exact weekend as the musical cabaret she was directing, and one week off of a slew of college auditions and so lots of other music going on for her and preparation. Winning the jazz scholarship was enough. Also, every year going to All States is a little bit problematic because it is always held the week prior to our annual dance performances at our studio and they hate for kids to miss rehearsals and my kids are always away at All States (they have to go because it is connected to a course they take...either Band, Jazz Band, or Chorus....all during the school day for a grade) but it causes problems at our dance studio. So, the past two years, my D actually looked on the bright side of not being IN All States but only having to go to the final concert for her state awards (always good to look on the bright side) and that it really worked out much better for her with regard to dance. However, this year, with my D's massive injuries from her accident, she did not dance as expected. She got these awards on crutches actually. </p>

<p>Anyway, your point about the blending voice vs. the solo type voice, does ring true in her case and was her own analysis of it. Everyone knows their strengths and she knows hers. I was pointing out earlier, however, that it also involves one set of adjudicators for the chorus and another set of judges for the state awards and there is an element of subjectivity and what one person thinks is great, another might not. A true choral person might not like my D's kind of voice and then the jazz adjudicator raved about it. All of it is understandable. And none of it was a big deal and I only brought it up as relating to how anything that is judged has these elements in it because it is not an exact science. </p>

<p>Someone pointed out that the contest that Angst's D is doing might not even have judges who are trained musicians/singers but might be a panel of local folks. I don't know if that is true but if so, even adds another element of subjectivity and less criterion based. What a trained person thinks is good might differ from what the average Joe thinks is good. Just look at American Idol, lol. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Soozievt - I love your state's All-State Scholarship Program - I wish all states would implemented it! Congrats to your daughter on all her achievements - she sounds like one of those kids that was gifted with an enormous amount of talent in many different areas. We find out things about her vast talent in drips and drabs as you so beautifully answer questions of those seeking help. She's going to soar at NYU and I know we will all be watching her on Broadway someday soon! I can't wait to get her feedback on NYU next year.</p>