<p>D. is a finalist in a singing competition and we found out she is 2cd. (10 total) I am disappointed that she is so early. Do you all usually find that going later has the most advantages and a later candidate is more likely to win?</p>
<p>At any competitions you have been to has an early bird won? I know its not all about winning of course..but gosh I feel down about the order and would like to hear about your experiences. </p>
<p>This will be judged by most of the same judges that did the preliminaries, with a few new ones ..and judging will be done immediately after individual performance.</p>
<p>(hope you all dont mind my asking on this forum..but figure with everyones experience you all would know)</p>
<p>I am not familiar with the competition circuit as we have never been involved and don't know anyone else who has either. However, I agree with wct that if students are judged against a standard or criteria, the order should make no difference. You already stated that judging will be done immediately after each individual performance which means that the child will be judged according to criteria and how she met them, not against other competitiors. </p>
<p>We don't have that sort of stuff where we live. But even for something like All State Scholarships, which is not a competition but a selection via audition, kids are scored based on various criteria and the highest scorers win the scholarships, and so it is not like they pick a "winner" after hearing everyone but the auditor's scoring has been recorded after each singer has auditioned and thus the highest score wins the award and maybe that person went first or maybe last. It is not like they were pitting one kid against another. </p>
<p>I don't know anything about competitions but based on what you said about when they judge each kid, it appears that they are not judging them against each other but against standards/criteria. Since they are all singing on the same day, it is not like the kids who went first are a distant memory (like can happen in a college audition fall vs. spring audition) but it seems like every kid is on equal footing and the order should not matter. Their decision as to the winner does not sound like a decision made after everyone goes but is based on the judging/scoring results that were recorded individually as they went along. </p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts. I had read a long article that said that the later you were in a competition from studies they had done..it was proven the greater your chances EVEN if they are using set criteria. They used statistics from ice skating and singing competitions.</p>
<p>I am bummed about it..though I know thats just the way it goes. (No I will not tell her my thoughts on this)
Just when I heard she was 2cd I was like Oh no...</p>
<p>My daughter was recently in her first regional adjudications for the National Association of Teachers of Singing. She was the first to sing in MT(8:30 am) and about the 10th in art songs. There are awards--but not for MT! We didn't expect her to win anything in the art song category at this point but were interested in getting feedback from each of the three judges for each category. She was very pleased with the responses and the advice they gave was right on. </p>
<p>The adjudications are based on standards and not against other singers. Her only problem was that she was not warmed up enough for the MT category and she hit some rough spots that she never had problems with before. By the time she sang her art songs she was fine. So my advice would be to start warming up even as you are getting ready to go.</p>
<p>My daughter has scored several Superior Ratings in state competitions as well as NATS and has been placed in various "orders" of competition. It depends on the competitions. Good competitions (i.e., NATS, State Vocal Associations, etc.), will judge on standards. Other money making competitions will judge on order, with early entries "setting the standards". We choose not to do those competitions, as the results are not "real", so to speak. The adjudicators in quality competitions judge against a set of standards and, it's been our experience, stay very true to them.</p>
<p>With regard to singing early in the day, I would just suggest getting up extra early so that your speaking voice has worked out all the "sleepies", and you'll be ready to fully vocalize before the competition. Also, be ready for feedback immediately following your audition. Most students who score highly generally do so because their original audition went well, but they were also able to understand and demonstrate the direction they've been given by the adjudicators. We know of a very, very talented young girl who scored Excellent, rather than Superior, at a State Vocal Association competition. The comments were that she wasn't able to take direction. </p>
<p>I have a feeling that Angst is speaking of money making competitions which I have no experience with. Some of us are mentioning State vocal scholarships or NATS and other similar adjudications. It may work differently for the kind of thing that Angst's D is competing in. I don't really know. </p>
<p>Angst, if it is at all similar to an ice skating competition, you might notice how if a really superior skater skates early on in the finals, they may not get all perfect scores leaving room in case anyone "better" skates later. However, if the early skater turns out to be the "best" they've seen, that person can still win because they don't score anyone higher. So, if the thing your D is doing is like THAT, I still see it as making no difference as to the order of her singing. I would assume the judging is done fairly. If it is done fairly, then there is no problem. Just do your best and whatever happens happens. Look at such an experience as an experience without expectations of the "prize". If it happens, it happens and if not, ya tried and gained more experience in such situations. </p>
<p>Susan, It is not what I call a money making competition. I mean yes there are prizes which are very nice but thats not really the point. I could care less about the prizes.
This is one of the few local things she can do to perform in and share her talent. Several hundred kids from the area try out..the kids that do the shows, NATS , club competitions all the kids in singing in the area tryout...etc..and then they whittle it down ..So she has been through several whittling sessions.
She came in today and when she heard her position was disappointed and I thought it was because we had read an article on how going later as a performer increases your odds of winning and thus going early decreases your odds. (The article used studies on skaters and singers)
But she said it was because she wanted everyone to remember her..winning didnt matter so much to her. But folks remember her from shows she did when she was little so thats not an issue in my opinion.
Anyway she cant do anything about her position.
But believe me prizes arent the point. ..I dont give a flip about the prizes. I just want her to have an equal opportunity to win if she is the best that night and the study I read..indicated thats not often the case if you go early.</p>
<p>Here are some excerpts of the article posted by Angstridden, as edited by CollegeMom...</p>
<p>The best man won't always win, especially when he goes first
By Karyn Miller
(Filed: 20/02/2005)</p>
<p>The best way to come first is to go last. An analysis of almost 50 years of competitions - including Eurovision Song Contests and world skating championships - has found that contestants are more likely to win if they are among the last to appear before the judges.</p>
<p>The study showed a gradual worsening of chances for contestants who appeared earlier in the running order. A candidate who appears first in a contest is two per cent less likely to win than one who appears second. A candidate who appears second is two per cent less likely to win than one who appears third, and so on.</p>
<p>Dr Bruine de Bruin (from Carnegie Mellon University), a researcher in social and division sciences, analysed results from the early rounds of the World and European Figure Skating Championships between 1994 and 2000 and Eurovision Song Contests between 1957 and 2003.</p>
<p>The contests are judged in different ways but even when this and other factors, such as national bias, are taken into account, the results are the same. Scores increase in a linear fashion as a contest proceeds.</p>
<p>The findings are published in the March issue of Acta Psychologica, a scientific journal.</p>
<p>My son was last in being auditioned at one college this past fall, and by the time he went into the room, the judges were clearly drained. The guy was half falling asleep, hiding yawns, and gave him the bum's rush out with n'ary a word. My son was furious because the early batch of kids all got extra time to show more stuff, lots of improv opportunities and very in-synch auditioners instead of this slug crew he got. But, you know, he got in, and many of the early kids did not. They were, as the other posters, are saying, grading to a standard. </p>
<p>Sometimes it is great to be first, sometimes last. It depends upon who is auditioning and the group auditioning. All of these things can affect the results. I remember another time when S found out in a violin competion that a tiny young kid was playing the exact piece he was, and was right before him. So embarrassing, as the tyke was half S's age and already so advanced. But S placed with the piece, and the little guy did not, though I can tell you, I felt badly for my boys in both incidents when they occurred, and did not feel that the outcome was necessarily going to be postive. And if it were not, I don't know if it would have been for the reasons they were so convinced were going to sink them. You just take what you get in these competitions. They are not always fair, and the opportunities are not necessarily equal. There are alwasys a number of factors that have an impact that we cannot control and order is just one of them.</p>
<p>Yes I know they are not always fair.. We have had our share of it. There were a few things that made the results the first two years not fair..and they made new rules to compensate for the failings of the previous (I will spare you the details but it was pretty bad) so this year it looked like it would be better. So we just wanted a fair shot at it this year.
But thems the breaks, I guess..</p>
<p>"Just do your best and whatever happens happens."</p>
<p>I totally agree. Too many of us spend too much time worrying about the "what if's" or the "orders", etc., a lot of which is totally out of our control. Our children should be coached to do their best and be happy with their performances. And "whatever happens, happens".</p>
<p>Angst, just to clarify, I certainly never meant that your D was in the competition for the money. I meant that this is a singing "contest", right? Like a local competition sort of event? I meant that some of the posters above, including myself, were relating how things like State Scholarships are auditioned/awarded, or NATS, or regional music awards or even as one parent wrote, college auditions. So, I was simply saying that while I think some of us were offering perspective of how these other things are adjudicated according to a standard or scoring criteria and not comparing kids, that PERHAPS the sort of event that your D is participating in (you have mentioned in prior posts over the years on the Parent Forum about such competitions) MIGHT do it differently so we could not know for sure. I have no experience with those kind of "contests" is what I meant. We don't have singing contests in my region or pageants or many other things I read about on these sorts of forums and so that is why I wanted to clarify that the only judging I am aware of comes from my own kid's experience such as All State Scholarship or National ARTS Awards, and THOSE things are judged individually according to grading criteria and then the highest scores often receive an award. I don't truly know how it is done with competitions or contests like I think you are referring to. My point was not about it being "money-making" but to discriminate between whatever the contest is called there from the types of adjudicated auditions or awards I have had experience with. That was all. I am sure your D is not in it for the money. If her passion is singing, then she wants to perform. Winning won't be the end all and be all. As far as people remembering her, I am sure if I were watching such a contest, I would remember someone who stood out no matter the order of the performance. </p>
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<p>THANK YOU,
COLLEGEMOM</p>
<p>I have since edited the article that was posted because perhaps the poster's edit button is not working.</p>
<p>My post above regarding "money making" comps had nothing to do with the actual competitors making the money. We've been through several dance competitions, none of which were really quality, that charged large entry fees, workshops with hundreds of kids, etc. That's what I meant by "money-making". And, if I'm not incorrect, I think that's what Soozievt is also trying to say. </p>
<p>I've found you have to be very careful about talent competitions. So few are of real quality. What I and some of the other posters are trying to help with is in saying that in adjudicated contests, rather than "competitions", the scores are based on very strict standards, and, therefore, your order in the lineup, shouldn't be a problem. The only problem I see is a psychological one if a student isn't happy with where they are placed in the lineup. It has nothing to do with the actual adjudication. And, most quality competitions have judges who are more than happy to hear new talent, as opposed to "cheesy" comps where the judges get increasingly tired during the day.</p>
<p>Thanks Susan, I was thinking you thought we were in it for the prizes and believe me that is not even a thought in my book..I could care less about the prizes. I want someone to win that can sing. After the prior years fiascos..(one of which included the winner singing along with the original singer of the song and no one caught it till later...) we just want it to be a fair opportunity..</p>
<p>Sorry Collegemom on my breakin the rules..didnt think about it...</p>
<p>We haven't had too much experience with competitions but my d's have been involved in a few different types of competitions and yes, they always hope to go last. When you are being judged, judges tend not to give a "perfect 10" persay to someone at the beginning of the competition because chances are very likely that someone will come along and be better and then they have no higher mark to give. From what we have seen, there has been competitions where it seems that all of the winners were from the 2nd half of the competition. </p>
<p>But there is nothing you can do and if the prize isn't really what matters to you, then it really shouldn't matter. I certainly do think a memorable performance is truly memorable in whatever spot you are given to perform it. Just like a song from a play....you may remember a certain # that sticks out in your head and it isn't necessarily the one at the end of the performance. Good luck to your d!! I'm sure she will do great!!!</p>
<p>we've done many competitions and hate going early. however, if you have quality judges, it shouldn't matter. when i judge something like that, i do leave some wiggle room and don't give a 10 early. however, if no one is better, then whatever score i gave that early performer remains the highest score i give. so whether i give that first singer a 10 or an 8, it's still my highest. if you have good judges, that's what will happen. the other thing is, to be memorable. go over the top a little with stage presence, appearance, etc. be unique. one thing i always say is never give up any of the easy points. if they give a score for appearance or stage presence, make darn sure you get all those points cause they're the easy ones to get. play to your strengths. some people can sing but have no personality. i do know what you mean though about stuff happening. we've been through it a great deal. so many of these things do not turn out the way they should. our only comfort is going into it knowing that. the one thing i tell my d is to remember.......after it's all over, they may have the prize, but you still have your talent and still get to be you. they don't.</p>