Yes, opportunities for fun in student government, singing, theatre, journalism-oh wait, those are competitive too.
The recruiting timeline is what it is, @LostInTheShuffle. Positions fill based on that timeline, regardless of who is applying
Made a new thread Competitive admission college clubs other than those prepping for investment banking or management consulting because this one is mostly about investment banking and management consulting.
3 Likes
The kids getting these jobs are doing a ton of things in addition to the competitive clubs. These are really driven kids, who like being busy and are motivated to pursue a lot of interests. Also, these employers have to be looking for students who have demonstrated a strong drive and ability to balance multiple commitments, because those characteristics are necessary for these jobs.
These students have likely made a significant impact in multiple areas, not just one club, while on campus. Even though the poetry major mentioned above wasn’t in a competitive club, I would be surprised if she wasn’t also doing things like editing a campus magazine, being involved in a student drama or music club, doing research with a professor, and leading some sort on peer support or other organization.
3 Likes
A lot of STEM kids at good schools have stuff locked up in STEM jobs by Sophomore year – not a full time offer locked up, but next year’s internship at the same place locked up, which would result in a full time offer the following year. Many of them then let go of this path, and go around shopping for new experiences to have a wide set of opportunities to choose from. This is purposefully and thoughtfully taking on more risk. Some of these opportunities people may try are IB and Consulting. But they could be trying other things as well in the Junior year. So the IB / Consulting jobs are not usually locked in in the sophomore summer by STEM majors. These are often an after thought. They wing it, and make it more often than not. Those interviews are not terribly difficult for those who are trained to be logical. Employers are also looking for different things from these candidates.
1 Like
Just a note that recruiting senior year has become more difficult given the conversion rates of summer offers to full time offers. If almost everyone interning for junior summer gets a return offer, there arent so many spaces left open for senior applicants. There will always be a few though-people decide not to return, circumstances change.
It sounds like what most people object to isn’t actually the competitive clubs at all, but the recruiting timeline that is now quite early.
9 Likes
I don’t doubt these pre-professional clubs make it easier for some students to obtain these types of jobs. They are in essence a prepackaged information program in terms process, deadlines and prep (resume, interviews and certain substantive skills). For aspiring consultants and bankers who want/need a structured path, I am sure this is a big help. On the other hand, students who are already familiar with these industries and/or are willing to do the spade work on their own, I don’t think these clubs are necessary. They may enjoy participating because they like this stuff, but you can get these jobs at MBB or any top IB without these clubs as well.
3 Likes
At least on the tech side, and possibly on the finance side, this year may be special. I think offer yields are high for firms because some of the tech employers have made zero/fewer return offers to their summer interns (I’ve heard of some – and there is overlap between some parts of finance and some parts of tech in terms of how kids look at these jobs), and firms may have less space to fill extra slots the senior year.
@roycroftmom , as you’ve gathered, I don’t like the exclusivity of the clubs. But I equally dislike the way the recruiting timeline has changed. Call me old-fashioned, but I think exploration is important for these young adults, and I think that this system further amplifies the tendency not to decide based on personal experiences but on peer pressure.
I am a dinosaur, but had one of those highly coveted consulting internships one summer (as a grad student). And I had an offer at the end. And you know what I learned? I didn’t want to be a consultant! My closest friend that summer decided the same, and we both snagged jobs we interviewed for - not in consulting- in the following fall and winter. The beauty, though, was that the timeline allowed that pivot. And both of us are still working in that field.
6 Likes
That’s also my sense from the STEM colleagues I knew at my (former) MBB.
Moreover, in my experience, MBB have had to entice very strong STEM students at top schools to consider consulting and will likely leave spots open for such students even if they apply in their final year. Thanks.
Yes, I liked the old timeline better, but see no sign of it going back. If anything, it keeps moving forward.
Of course, back in the old days things were far less competitive. Few even knew MBB existed. Now McKinsey says they get just shy of 1 million applications worldwide. Times have changed.
The time frame doesn’t hurt the students very much. They go and lock up these jobs in the Sophomore year, and then go try other things if they want to.
MBB underpays significantly with respect to tech and quant. It is hard for them to compete. Even IB, which I think pays better than MBB, underpay tech and quant.
The underpay is both from a nominal headline number, as well as number of hours worked.
IB eventually matches tech nominally, and likely exceeds tech, but the hours continue to suck. IB may (often not) pull up in pay with quant at very senior levels, but not in hours.
Yes, at my daughter’s college sorority rush is in the spring. I wish competitive clubs were similarly delayed.
2 Likes
Not sure I understand what you mean.
Companies don’t want to tell publicly which groups and sectors they are hiring in, because then they are giving away competitive intelligence to their competitors. This summer my son had to sign an NDA clearly specifying what is considered firm IP, and it included the size of the groups, and shape of the physical organization of the various groups on the floor etc.
Yep, I understand pretty well what constitutes IP. Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my question, so let’s try again. I’m wondering what level of feedback and communication the clubs get from their contacts at these firms, contacts which they must have since the clubs must be successful in placing people at these firms.
Asked another way, if I were in one of these clubs, would I ever hear a leader say, “Bain has given us feedback about people not being prepared to talk about X, Y or Z, so make sure you’re ready,” or “the new hiring manager at Boston Consulting likes athletic people, so for our athletes we encourage you to highlight that part of yourself,” blah blah blah.
Having been around this world for a very long time, I am keenly aware of the non-objective “soft” considerations that go into hiring. Cravath works for me now, and I know how they think when they are recruiting out of law school, and there is a lot there that a smart kid might not, or likely would not, just figure out on their own. This is one of the reasons why kids who have family members who operate in these spaces have such a leg up.
I’m asking if some of this inside baseball comes from the firms themselves, either through official or unofficial channels.
2 Likes
My kid is not in that space. I don’t know.
Ok, my mistake. You seemed to understand these clubs pretty well.
I understand to some extent. And I know what I don’t understand.
Incidentally if this is important enough for someone to know, it is not terribly hard to find out, although I can’t imagine why this would be important enough to know before you join a college. Probably important before you join the club. By that time you are on campus, and you can ask any number of people how a club functions.
They lock themselves into something they don’t like and can’t explore because the options are locked up but it doesn’t hurt them? But @roycroftmom is right, it’s not going backwards.