<p>There are many things that prevent these schools from having a 100% graduation rate-- people have crises come up and prevent them from attending school. For example, if a close family member is extremely sick, a student may want to transfer to a school closer to the family member. Or, for example, if your parents somehow becomes disabled, and is unable to work, your family may not be able to finance your college education. Don't think that those 2%-8% of people flunked out of ivy league schools-- they probably had personal crises come up.</p>
<p>Or maybe they trasnferred to a different Ivy? XD</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd be interested in hearing from students who applied to an were accepted at an Ivy League university, then realized it was a poor fit and transferred to a non-Ivy to complete their degree. Why was the Ivy a poor fit for you? What type of school did you transfer to and why has this school worked for you when your original choice did not? (Yes, I realize some students may have transferred to another Ivy League university, but this thread is directed toward those who opted out of the IL)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While this is not a personal story, I've heard of people who transferred from an Ivy to a non-Ivy because the latter was a better school. For example, I read about a guy who transferred from Cornell to MIT. He felt, and I agree, that MIT was a better engineering school. </p>
<p>As for why he didn't just go to MIT right out of high school, the reason is simple: he didn't get in. He went to Cornell, did very well, and applied to MIT as a transfer and got in.</p>
<p>Does anyone have a list of the highest graduation rates? I can't believe that the Ivies don't have amongst the highest grad rates.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't think that those 2%-8% of people flunked out of ivy league schools-- they probably had personal crises come up.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh maybe they just found better things to do with their time. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Matt Damon all dropped out of Harvard not because they were 'flunking out' or were suffering from personal crises, but just because they found far better things to do with their time. </p>
<p>Consider what Paul Graham had to say about Gates and young entrepreneurs:</p>
<p>*...when I think about it, I can't imagine telling Bill Gates at 19 that he should wait till he graduated to start a company. He'd have told me to get lost. And could I have honestly claimed that he was harming his future-- that he was learning less by working at ground zero of the microcomputer revolution than he would have if he'd been taking classes back at Harvard? No, probably not.</p>
<p>And yes, while it is probably true that you'll learn some valuable things by going to work for an existing company for a couple years before starting your own, you'd learn a thing or two running your own company during that time too.</p>
<p>The advice about going to work for someone else would get an even colder reception from the 19 year old Bill Gates. So I'm supposed to finish college, then go work for another company for two years, and then I can start my own? I have to wait till I'm 23? That's four years. That's more than twenty percent of my life so far. Plus in four years it will be way too late to make money writing a Basic interpreter for the Altair.</p>
<p>And he'd be right. The Apple II was launched just two years later. In fact, if Bill had finished college and gone to work for another company as we're suggesting, he might well have gone to work for Apple. And while that would probably have been better for all of us, it wouldn't have been better for him.*</p>
<p>Hiring</a> is Obsolete</p>
<p>graduation rates within 6 years and SAT/ACT 75th percentile</p>
<p>school, SAT 75th percentile, ACT 75th, graduation rate</p>
<p>Harvard University 1590 34 98
Yale University 1580 34 96
University of Notre Dame 1500 33 96
Amherst College 1530 33 96
Williams College 1520 33 96
Princeton University 1590 34 96
Stanford University 1540 33 95
Georgetown University 1490 32 94
Dartmouth College 1550 34 94
Duke University 1560 33 94
Haverford College 1500 Blank 94
University of Pennsylvania 1490 33 94
Brown University 1530 33 94
Middlebury College 1480 33 94
Pomona College 1520 34 93
Northwestern University 1500 33 93
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 1560 34 93
Wellesley College 1495 31 93
Carleton College 1490 32 93
Columbia University in the City of New York 1540 33 93
Rice University 1530 33 93
Bowdoin College 1480 Blank 92
Johns Hopkins University 1490 32 92
College of the Holy Cross #VALUE! Blank 92
Tufts University 1480 32 92
Cornell University 1490 32 92
Swarthmore College 1530 34 92
University of Virginia-Main Campus 1430 31 92
Boston College 1420 31 91
Washington University in St Louis 1530 33 91
Davidson College 1440 31 91
College of William and Mary 1440 31 91
Wesleyan University 1490 32 90
Grinnell College 1480 33 90
Bates College #VALUE! Blank 90
Vassar College 1450 32 90
Lafayette College 1380 29 90
California Institute of Technology 1570 Blank 89
University of California-Berkeley 1450 31 89
University of California-Los Angeles 1410 30 89
University of Chicago 1560 33 89
Wheaton College 1430 31 89
Colgate University 1440 32 89
Bucknell University 1390 30 89
Vanderbilt University 1460 33 89
Claremont McKenna College 1460 33 88
Thomas Aquinas College 1400 29 88
Brandeis University 1440 33 88
Hamilton College #VALUE! Blank 88
Wake Forest University 1400 Blank 88
Whitman College 1410 Blank 88
Emory University 1470 33 87
Colby College 1430 31 87
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 1420 31 87
Barnard College 1450 31 87
Kenyon College 1420 32 87
Washington and Lee University 1470 31 87
University of California-San Diego 1370 29 86
Connecticut College 1390 29 86
Smith College 1370 29 86
Carnegie Mellon University 1490 32 86
Lehigh University 1390 Blank 86
Muhlenberg College 1320 30 86
Furman University 1390 30 86
Harvey Mudd College 1560 Blank 85
Macalester College 1450 32 85
St. Olaf College 1400 30 85
Oberlin College 1460 31 85
Pennsylvania State University-Penn State Main Campus 1300 28 85
University of Southern California 1460 32 84
Colorado College 1400 31 84
New York University 1410 31 84
Trinity College 1390 29 83
Mount Holyoke College #VALUE! Blank 83
University of Richmond 1350 30 83
Occidental College 1380 30 82
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1400 31 82
DePauw University 1320 29 82
Saint Johns University 1275 27 82
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 1420 29 82
Syracuse University 1330 29 82
Dickinson College 1370 30 82
University of California-Davis 1300 27 81
Centre College 1360 29 81
Boston University 1370 30 81
Miami University-Oxford 1300 29 81
Franklin and Marshall College 1360 Blank 81
Rhodes College 1370 30 81
Illinois Wesleyan University 1360 30 80
St Mary's College of Maryland 1340 Blank 80
Kalamazoo College 1410 30 80
College of Saint Benedict 1270 27 80
University of Rochester 1420 30 80
Skidmore College 1330 28 80
Gettysburg College 1350 30 80
University of California-Irvine 1300 27 79
Pepperdine University 1350 Blank 79
George Washington University 1390 Blank 79
University of Florida 1360 29 79</p>
<p>Hm...US News has this for graduation within 4 years, but for some reason...I could have sworn I have seen higher numbers elsewhere...maybe Im missing something</p>
<p>USNews.com:</a> America's Best Colleges 2008: Highest graduation rates</p>
<p>basketball and football grad rates versus overall grad rate</p>
<p>school, football grad rate, basketball grad rate, overall SAT 75th, ACT 75th, overall grad rate</p>
<p>for schools with athletic scholarships (#VALUE! means missing data)</p>
<p>University of Maryland-College Park 71% 20% 1390 Blank 79
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 67% 25% 1420 31 87
The University of Texas at Austin 28% 25% 1350 29 77
University of Virginia-Main Campus 77% 29% 1430 31 92
Michigan State University 43% 29% 1290 27 74
University of Miami 53% 29% 1360 31 73
University of California-Santa Barbara #VALUE! 33% 1320 28 78
Fordham University 52% 33% 1290 28 78
Marquette University #VALUE! 33% 1300 29 78
American University #VALUE! 33% 1370 30 71
Iowa State University 56% 40% 1350 27 66
Boston College 78% 43% 1420 31 91
Indiana University-Bloomington 44% 43% 1240 27 72
University of Iowa 53% 43% 1320 27 65
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities 50% 43% 1360 28 61
Pepperdine University #VALUE! 44% 1350 Blank 79
University of Pittsburgh-Main Campus 39% 44% 1330 29 73
University of California-Berkeley 78% 50% 1450 31 89
University of Richmond 82% 50% 1350 30 83
Syracuse University 59% 50% 1330 29 82
Brigham Young University 46% 50% 1350 30 78
Rutgers University-New Brunswick/Piscataway 44% 50% 1310 Blank 73
Virginia Military Institute 87% 50% 1220 25 73
University of Colorado at Boulder 56% 50% 1280 28 66
University of California-Riverside #VALUE! 50% 1200 23 64
Auburn University Main Campus 53% 50% 1230 27 63
Texas A & M University 44% 56% 1290 28 77
Duke University 91% 57% 1560 33 94
Northwestern University 80% 57% 1500 33 93
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 60% 57% 1400 31 82
SUNY at Binghamton #VALUE! 57% 1350 29 78
Baylor University 64% 57% 1310 28 74
University of Missouri-Columbia 65% 57% 1300 28 69
Union College 15% 57% 982 20 29
Georgetown University 100% 60% 1490 32 94
College of the Holy Cross 89% 60% #VALUE! Blank 92
Vanderbilt University 88% 60% 1460 33 89
University of Georgia 53% 60% 1330 28 75
Saint Louis University-Main Campus #VALUE! 60% 1300 28 75
George Washington University #VALUE! 63% 1390 Blank 79
Southern Methodist University 94% 63% 1320 29 74
University of California-Los Angeles 50% 67% 1410 30 89
University of Connecticut 58% 70% 1290 27 74
Wake Forest University 63% 71% 1400 Blank 88
Pennsylvania State University-Penn State Main Campus 74% 71% 1300 28 85
University of Washington-Seattle Campus 53% 71% 1320 28 75
Lafayette College 81% 75% 1380 29 90
Lehigh University 67% 75% 1390 Blank 86
Boston University #VALUE! 75% 1370 30 81
University of California-Irvine #VALUE! 75% 1300 27 79
University of Florida 35% 75% 1360 29 79
University of Delaware 100% 75% 1290 28 76
University of Notre Dame 76% 80% 1500 33 96
Furman University 89% 80% 1390 30 86
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University 80% 80% 1290 Blank 79
University of Wisconsin-Madison 65% 80% 1370 30 78
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus 37% 80% 1400 32 77
Ohio State University-Main Campus 48% 80% 1310 29 71
Birmingham Southern College #VALUE! 80% 1290 28 69
Rice University 82% 83% 1530 33 93
College of William and Mary 82% 83% 1440 31 91
Miami University-Oxford 73% 83% 1300 29 81
University of Denver #VALUE! 83% 1290 28 72
Tulane University of Louisiana 54% 83% 1425 31 71
The University of Tennessee 29% 83% 1270 28 60
Stanford University 80% 86% 1540 33 95
Bucknell University 78% 88% 1390 30 89
Presbyterian College 95% 88% 1230 26 71
Colgate University 78% 90% 1440 32 89
Davidson College #VALUE! 100% 1440 31 91
Purdue University-Main Campus 42% 100% 1250 28 70</p>
<p>A lot of colleges prefer to report six-year graduation rates. Some students do various things (sometimes fun things like study abroad) that may cause some to not graduate in four years, but graduate just fine in six years.</p>
<p>Majayiduke09-
The difference is due to 4-year versus 6-year graduation rates.
Six-year graduation rates are the standard for comparison nationwide.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Harvard University 1590 34 98
Yale University 1580 34 96
University of Notre Dame 1500 33 96
Amherst College 1530 33 96
Williams College 1520 33 96
Princeton University 1590 34 96
Stanford University 1540 33 95
Georgetown University 1490 32 94
Dartmouth College 1550 34 94
Duke University 1560 33 94
Haverford College 1500 Blank 94
University of Pennsylvania 1490 33 94
Brown University 1530 33 94
Middlebury College 1480 33 94
Pomona College 1520 34 93
Northwestern University 1500 33 93
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 1560 34 93
Wellesley College 1495 31 93
Carleton College 1490 32 93**
Columbia University in the City of New York 1540 33 93**
Rice University 1530 33 93
Bowdoin College 1480 Blank 92
Johns Hopkins University 1490 32 92
College of the Holy Cross #VALUE! Blank 92
Tufts University 1480 32 92**
Cornell University 1490 32 92**
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ivy grad rates looks pretty good to me. In fact, more than good. Outstanding.</p>
<p>Honestly, the prestige, I just think it is plain weird that a person would NOT want their university to excel at just about everything (including sports), whether they cared about it or not. I'd rather hang myself than play chess all day or go to the opera, but I'd still be proud of my alma mater if it were the best in the nation in those two events. Why? I don't know, just because PEOPLE care about those things, so being the best in them is an accomplishment. Don't you think you'd be proud if your alma mater was the best athletic school as well as being an academic powerhouse? I think most people would.</p>
<p>^^ As a student who chose to attend a school with virtually nonexistent sports (Chicago), I can just say that sports were not a decision factor for me AT ALL. I don't like to play them, I don't like to watch them, and of course it's fine with me that other people like them and I like a lot of people who like sports. A college that has good sports is a pretty cool thing.</p>
<p>Do I feel a twinge of envy when my Harvard and Yale friends tell stories about The Game, when my older brother is a lifelong Lynah Faithful (Cornell Hockey), and when my JHU friends go wild over lacrosse? Sure, a twinge. But all I have to do is think about all the things I like about my school and all of the fuzzy feelings come rushing back. </p>
<p>(Also, my dorm subsidized Blackhawks/Red Wings tickets for us last year, and my friends and I plan some Sox and Cubs outings in the spring, so it's not like sports pride is nonexistent).</p>
<p>This thread is the one-stop-shopping merged thread, so there is a lot of discussion going on here, but I wanted to get back to the true statement that most young people go to college within 500 miles (that is, within one day's drive) of their homes. For someone looking at colleges farther from home, the knowledge of local hometown colleges may exceed the level of personal knowledge of target colleges. A study of which colleges students actually choose to enroll at, when admitted to more than one, is helpful to a student who is developing an initial application list. </p>
<p>One way to get a reality check on where students apply to from different regions is to check the ACT state reports </p>
<p>ACT</a> National and State Scores for 2007: State Profile Reports </p>
<p>and SAT state reports </p>
<p>College-Bound</a> Seniors 2007 </p>
<p>for each state, because each state report for either test shows about a page of how many students submitted scores from each test to what colleges. In all states, the hometown colleges get the most score reports, but if you look at students who take the test less predominant in each state (which signals, as it did when I was a high school student, that the student may be interested in applying out of state), you can still pick up which out of region colleges have a special draw for students in that state. See, for example, </p>
<p><a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/states/California.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/states/California.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/states/Newjersey.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/states/Newjersey.pdf</a> </p>
<p>I'll try to write up more about my thoughts on the revealed preferences working paper in a few days. I'm looking forward to seeing the paper in refined, peer-reviewed form.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Honestly, the prestige, I just think it is plain weird that a person would NOT want their university to excel at just about everything (including sports), whether they cared about it or not. I'd rather hang myself than play chess all day or go to the opera, but I'd still be proud of my alma mater if it were the best in the nation in those two events. Why? I don't know, just because PEOPLE care about those things, so being the best in them is an accomplishment. Don't you think you'd be proud if your alma mater was the best athletic school as well as being an academic powerhouse? I think most people would.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, the fact of the matter is, Ivy League football used to be the best football programs in the country. Pop quiz, which football program holds the most national football championships? Michigan? Ohio State? Notre Dame? USC? Oklahoma? Wrong. Yale and Princeton can both lay claim to 24 national championships:
NCAA</a> Division I-A national football championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>Of course, much of this can be debated as the era of Ivy League football domination happened prior to the "poll era" -- a long time ago I will acknowledge. Times have changed. And frankly, standards have changed. But the Ivy League's policy of prohibiting sports scholarships have not. THAT is something I am very proud of -- (as an alumnus of two Ivy League institutions).</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is the absolute best football players in the country just are not the best academic minds in the country. Period. There is no debating this. Those elite athletes who are gifted enough to play on Sundays have unique talents, no question -- but let's face it -- academic achievement ain't one of those talents. One of the most infamous stories which highlight this focus on sports at the expense of academics is Dexter Manley's story:
Dexter</a> Manley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>At his prime one of the most fearsome defensive ends in the NFL. He was a Pro-Bowler and won two Super Bowl Championships with the Washington Redskins. He graduated from Oklahoma State. He shocked the world when he revealed that he couldn't read or write after his career was over. Let me repeat that. He was a functioning illiterate, yet he walked away from Oklahoma State with a degree. It's simply mind blowing.</p>
<p>Or what about QB phenom Vince Young (Texas graduate). He made waves when it was reported that his Wonderlic score was a whopping 6 (out of 50) -- one of the lowest scores ever reported -- and a score of 10 is supposed to mark the literacy level:
Vince</a> Young - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wonderlic</a> Test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>(p.s. highest Wonderlic score ever in NFL history? Pat McInally who is the only person ever to score a perfect 50. Where did he go to school? Harvard):
Pat</a> McInally - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>I'm sorry but Dexter Manley's story would never be possible at any of the Ivy League schools. Period. End of story. Instead, you hear about guys like Nick Hartigan, former star runningback at Brown, who broke nearly every relevant Ivy rushing record, led the Bears to an Ivy championship, was selected to play in the East-West all-star game as a fullback for the East. He tried out with the Jets (but was cut). But the story doesn't end there. He was also a Rhodes Scholar finalist and was accepted to Harvard Law School. Article on Hartigan:
For</a> Hartigan, Career Path Is a No-Brainer - washingtonpost.com</p>
<p>So, yeah, the Ivies aren't going to be winning any national football championships anymore, but so what? Its a completely different ball game now. Call me old fashioned, but for my money, the Ivy League represents the best of what it means to be a true STUDENT-athlete.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Oh maybe they just found better things to do with their time. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Matt Damon all dropped out of Harvard not because they were 'flunking out' or were suffering from personal crises, but just because they found far better things to do with their time.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Or stated another way, the opportunity costs were too high for them to continue with college.</p>
<p>So many people here say that going to a top-tier school isn't the most important thing in life, which has an element of truth. But are the people saying this from the Ivy or just people who want to "belittle" these schools because they've been rejected?</p>
<p>As one of these people who say going to a "top-tier school isn't the most important thing in life," I say this from the point of view that I'm not applying to any ivies (therefore, I haven't been rejected by any- I chose not to apply to any-not because I am not necessarily qualified, but because all of these ivies don't have exactly what I'm looking for in a college-a specific program, location, focus, etc.). </p>
<p>IMHO, this statement has more than just an element of truth to it. It is 100% true, as only 100,000 or less of the world's college students are currently attending an ivy. Honestly. Does that mean the rest of the world's current college students are screwed? I mean, going to an ivy is great and all, but it is little more than an athletic conference. The schools themselves are what people should care about, not so much about their prestige. While they all have excellent academics, great job placements/alumni networks, etc. I just don't feel they are necessary- especially for the undergrad experience.</p>
<p>It all depends on the fit between you and a college. In my opinion, the concept of 'the best college' is completely irrelevant. What matters is which one is the best college for you, where you fit best. And there is no rank or title like Ivy for that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
IMHO, this statement has more than just an element of truth to it. It is 100% true, as only 100,000 or less of the world's college students are currently attending an ivy. Honestly. Does that mean the rest of the world's current college students are screwed? I mean, going to an ivy is great and all, but it is little more than an athletic conference. The schools themselves are what people should care about, not so much about their prestige. While they all have excellent academics, great job placements/alumni networks, etc. I just don't feel they are necessary- especially for the undergrad experience.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I chose my undergrad based on excellent academics, great job placements/alumni networks, etc and ended up choosing a non-Ivy. The Ivy's aren't necessarily the best in every major (one of which was mine). For grad school, I'm at Columbia, but not for the "Ivy status." It was just simply the best fit for me in terms of my concentration in my major, but I didn't like their undergrad curriculum, which was why I avoided it previously.</p>