Computer jobs

Parents Forum
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<p>teefore2, I guess we see things differently. In 25 years in the business, I'd never seen anything like the bloated salaries people were getting in the late 90s. We were getting worried that costs would start to damage competitiness as it got too expensive to develop or maintain the software critical industries needed. When the dotcom bubble burst, a lot of jobs and salary were lost, but most of it was artificial anyway, the economy snapping back into shape like a rubber band. If costs hadn't been brought back in line, I'm convinced there would have been enough incentive to bring more automated software development tools to the market and we'd be looking at lots of mundane programming jobs going away, anyway.</p>

<p>I do see salary competition from the cost of offshore resources, but the cost differential with India is starting to correct itself as the number of trained people they have gets absorbed and they begin to what more, and while the cost differential with China is dramatic, so are the costs and risks of doing business with them give us pause and we're careful what we'd be willing to let them do. Certain things we wouldn't offshore no matter what anyway. I would advise students not to think they're going to be able to make a living with the kind of corporate programming job their fathers had, but as I said above, if we weren't shipping those jobs to India or China, we'd be automating them out or existance anyway.</p>

<p>As to the Bush administration being fully behind this, I'm not sure what you mean. A British consultant named Handy predicted all of this in the early 80s as an inevitable consequence of the telecom revolution that created the internet. It's bigger than any administration. I'm not sure how you think Bush is supporting this. Could you explain?</p>

<p>BTW, I know that Kerry made a number of accusations against Bush during the recent campaign, but factcheck.org sort of demolished Kerry on this one. They said he was wrong on three points:</p>

<p>1) Outsourcing hasn't been having the kind of impact Kerry claimed</p>

<p>2) It's been going on for decades (even the Clinton administration suffered a net loss in manufacturing jobs) and the specific policies Kerry blamed it on were in place long before the present administration</p>

<p>3) Not only Kerry's proposed solution not help create jobs, it had a good chance of making things worse.</p>

<p>I wouldn't take my word for it, of course. See for yourself:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.factcheck.org/article225.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.factcheck.org/article225.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I have been involved with high tech and low tech stuff. There is no immunity. The barrier to entry for high/low tech is relatively low, that is why the industries are outsourced. Here is my opinion why. In the high tech arena, having the knowledge is paramount and because knowledge is free flowing and can be had for the cost of a school, the barrier cost is low and therefore easily outsourced.
For the low tech, other resources are more important than knowledge such as land and how much resource money can buy as compared to the home country. </p>

<p>Bush and Clinton realize that money and knowledge have no boundaries. They would be foolish if not impossible in trying to limit the flow of money and knowledge. Basically, limiting "Freedom." Thus supporting free trade is an avenue of least resistance and they can perhaps direct the money and knowledge to areas that benefit the US.</p>

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<p>Teefore2,</p>

<p>I agree with you. There are still computer job openings out there (in the USA) for talented and energetic computer graduates. If the students love to study computer science and want to work as computer programmers or scientists after they graduate, my recommendation to them is “Go for it!”</p>

<p>I’ve been working in computer industry in Silicon Valley for 20+ years, and I really like computer science and technology, but I believe that it’s up to my son to choose his future career. I did recommend him to take a Java class in his freshman year (9th grade) because I wanted him to find out whether he enjoyed programming or not. He liked the class, but he did not like the long hours that he had to spend writing, debugging, and testing his program assignments. So he decided not to take the Computer Science AP class offered at his high school, and he tentatively plans to study biology when he goes to college in September because he enjoyed studying biology (he took 3 biology-related classes) in high school.
To the young enthusiastic and talented high school students out there, if you really like programming and computer science, please go for it; pursue your dream! There are many exciting fields within computer science that you may want to explore: robotics (e.g., Mars rovers), multimedia (e.g., music, video, photography, etc.), artificial intelligence (e.g., evolution algorithms), bioinformatics (e.g., DNA pattern matching algorithms), etc. Investigate and find out what really interests you. Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>While production coding will move off-shore, just like other production jobs in other industries, innovation has and will be an American asset. New inventions happen here. Only after they are standardized do they go off-shore. The new uses of computers have only been touched. We are no where near the production phase of all computer science. I would encourage anyone to pursue computer science as a career. I would not encourage them to just become a programmer. There is a vast difference. You need programming as a tool, but knowledge is the key to long term viability.</p>

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<p>Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far. I am aware of the outsourcing of computer related jobs. However, it would never occur to me to stop my children from going into a field because it might be challenging to find a job. As long as they are aware of it and they still want to do it, then we'll help them find a college that has internships/co-ops and a good job placement rate. My son has said that he doesn't want to be a programmer. He does have a pretty wild imagination, seems to have a knack for programming and loves to play computer games. Maybe being a game designer is not out of the question.</p>

<p>Makam, I have looked at Worcester Polytech and asked some friends about it. Two of them said that has an excellent academic reputation but the location is kind of in a dead industrial section of town. My son has said location is not a priority for him so we may look into it further. Here's what another friend said, "WPI is a very good school. Quite highly rated, sort of like a liberal arts school for techies (good attention from fac, from what I hear). They do some big keystone project before graduating, can take courses at Clark. Good placement record." Please let me know what you think after your visit since, as you've said, "Your son is me!" My live, right here, son won't be able to see it until after April and probably not until the summer so would really appreciate your take on it.</p>

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<p>I agree Kathiep, students should not be discouraged from taking a course of study based on the "job market". First there will always be a job for the best students. Secondly, the job market can change quickly. </p>

<p>Regarding out sourcing overseas, I have read that, while there was a great rush to outsource high tech functions in recent years, employers are beginning to recognize some of the downside of this, difficulty with project control/coordination and theft of intellectual property being two major ones.</p>

<p>I looked at the Millersburg compsci department site and it looks like a good program. It has a decent faculty, good course offerings and is ABET certified. The only reservation is the number of adjunct faculty employed by the department. Fortunately most adjucnts teach only the intro courses. ABET certification is particularly important for colleges which are not among the top tier with respect to research and faculty resources.</p>

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<p>kathiep;
My son looked seriously at WPI for CS. He ended up at CMU. He liked WPI, and they offered him a great scholarship, but ultimately he felt CMU would be best if he stayed w/ CS. I did want to share some of our observations on WPI, however. WPI is located in a town w/ many colleges, so there seemed to be plenty to do. The campus is VERY compact, which he liked. The neighborhood seemed fine, and accessible. The staff he met seemed quite friendly. The biggest potential drawback I remember was the 7 week terms. We ran into a WPI CS professor touring RPI with his son, and he pointed out to us that the 7 week terms can have significant complications if you get sick, have girl-friend problems, or any other interruption. Although you are taking fewer courses at a time, the pace is VERY fast, and missing a few days can wreck havoc. Some students, however, work better when concentrating on only a few classes at a time, so it may be an advantage for them.</p>

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<p>originaloog - i love adjunct faculty.. what's wrong with them?</p>

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<p>Don't discount adjunct faculty, especially if they are from industry.</p>

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<p>they bring so much EXPERIENCE.. i can't stand professors who .. all they have done their whole life is teach and write books. That's not the kind of person I want to learn from.. I want to learn from someone who is out there doing what they do, and teaching because they love teaching. i've learned so much out of the adjuncts, they bring so much to the table.. they're just really great all around people..</p>

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<p>Sorry, Millersville not Millersburg.</p>

<p>Fendergirl writes, " I can't stand professors who .. all they have done their whole life is teach and write books." If that is truly your experience, perhaps it says more about your faculty than your love of adjunct faculty. However I suspect that you are indulging in some hyperbole.</p>

<p>I did not say that adjucnt faculty were horrible in the classroom only that the use of adjuncts is something to be awary of. Use of adjucnts serve one purpose for colleges and that is to staff the classroom cheaply. They can bring some "real world" experience into the classroom but so can tenured faculty. I regularly do consulting work for several engineering firms and sometimes can enlist my students in the work. I did an estuary tidal flow study a number of years back and used three students to set and retrieve tide guages, download the data, do some dispersion tests, etc. And you can's stand prof who all they do is teach? Well teaching is a skill and the more one teaches the more likely he becomes more proficient. Adjuncts do not normally have access to labs and other departmental facilities outside the class requirements. Adjuncts are less likely to be on campus at other times during the day. If adjuncts are employed,their classes are more likely to be held at nite when EC activities are scheduled. Adjuncts do not participate in research and do not receive grants that can be used for the benefit of students. And today with the ubiquitous use of computer programs in engineering and science, it doesn't take long to forget even basic theory and analytical techniques that are a mainstay of undergraduate courses. So while that adjunct might be able to regale his class with his experience managing construction of a cable-stayed bridge, it is just as likely that he would have problems teaching the theory going into its design.</p>

<p>So I stand by my advice to be a bit wary of colleges which rely heavily on adjunct faculty. In many cases the students may be consumers of a Toyota education at Luxus prices.</p>

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<p>I think originaloog made some good points. In computer science and engineering, many of the tenured faculty members do have significant experience outside of academia, although this is not true in many other fields. There may not be much difference between the backgrounds of such tenured faculty members and of some adjuncts; the main difference is that the tenured faculty members have an institution that treats them well instead of trying to exploit them. Adjuncts are often overworked and not able to spend as much time on campus. Sometimes they don't even have offices.</p>

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<p>Thanks ori, (how's that for a nickname??) for pointing the adjunct faculty point. Another thing to research! Like fendergirl said though, some adjuncts probably do bring a needed richness of real life experience to a college. One just wouldn't like to have a majority of teachers that are not tenured.</p>

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<p>My father was an adjunct professor. His full-time job was a research engineer. He had a great sense of humor, too. When asked on an accreditation form for the college where he taught if he had done any research in the past three years, Dad wrote, "Man, that's all I do!"</p>