Computer Science: RIT vs CWRU vs RPI vs Waterloo

<p>Haven't heard back from all of them yet, but assuming I get in those 4 and it costs the same...which would you guys recommend for a Computer Science major (with a possible double major in Math)</p>

<p>RIT = Rochester Institute of Technology
CWRU = Case Western Reserve University
RPI = Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Waterloo = Well, Waterloo in Canada</p>

<p>I have visited all of them except Waterloo and I think as a WHOLE, I like Case Western the best but which would be the BEST for a CS major? Of course that's not everything that matters but I'd still like to know :)</p>

<p>What if Waterloo is not on the list? (I think that one will be the hardest to get in to)</p>

<p>So far I've only heard back from RIT and Case. I have this feeling that RIT is better for CS but that Case has a "better name" which would make it easier to find a job. Plus Case's environment might be better as well.</p>

<p>Ahhhh this is so confusing :(</p>

<p>Thanks for the help...</p>

<p>My son is also going to study CS and has been accepted at Case and RIT (also Queens in Canada and Wisconsin), waitlisted at RPI and waiting to hear from Waterloo.</p>

<p>I just did some searches and this is what I found: the first post is from this same blog/forum</p>

<p>Answer to why RIT has low retention </p>

<hr>

<p>On another post, someone asked why RIT has lower retention than many schools in its category as noted by US News and World Report. It has lower retention when compared to all ivys and when compared to many other technical schools such as CMU and Cal Tech etc. Here is my response to that poster:</p>

<hr>

<p>We investigated this issue for my daughter. There are a number of reasons, in my opinion, for the lower graduation rate, much of which has little to do with school quality:</p>

<ol>
<li>RIT overall isn’t that hard to get into. They accept about 65%-70% of their applicants although this does vary from school to school within the university. However, it is uniformly a very tough school to do well in. I think that many kids go there without an understanding of how difficult a technical school can be. You mentioned that the graduation rate of schools such as Cal Tech, MIT, ivy schools etc. have a much higher graduation rate. However , they also have very tough admission standards. Generally, retention has a direct corellation with the toughness of the admission standards. The higher the admission standards, the greater the retention. This certainly isn’t RIT’s fault, and I personally applaud them for maintaining high standards for their students. </li>
</ol>

<p>I should note that being on a quarter system adds to the toughness in some ways. If you get sick for a while, you will miss more than with a semester system. Both mid terms and finals come at the students with greater frequency than with a semester oriented school. As for my personal opinion based on interviewing both students and faculty members, I personally believe that RIT offers a stellar academic environment. Most kids don’t seem to leave RIT because of academic reasons.</p>

<ol>
<li>There is comparatively little to do on campus. Unlike other schools such as Penn State, Ohio State, Northwestern and other big name schools, RIT doesn’t have a lot of school spirit. For example, sports, which really does build school spirit ( such as with University of Miami and Syracuse), isn’t that strong RIT. RIT’s strongest sport is hocky, which isn’t that popular in the US. Frankly with the weather being so cold, who wants to play tennis, football, baseball etc. Kids tend to stay indoors, and I think develop cabin fever.</li>
</ol>

<p>This is compounded by the fact that RIT really isn’t right near anything. Yes, Rochester has a lot to do in the City, but you really need a car to get anywhere. Even with a car. Rochester still isn’t as neat a city for a college student as other cities such as Boston, NY, Miami, Wash DC etc.</p>

<p>Also, unlike other technical schools such as CMU, RIT doesn’t have a drama program or musical theater. This reduces the activities available on campus and reduces the number of girls that apply to RIT, which will be discussed below.</p>

<p>I should note that RIT is building a “student city” where there will be restaurants and shops. However, this will take a long time to build and to finish. I also don’t know about the type of facilites or stores that will be in the city. For example, I wonder whether there will be a bowling alley in the city?</p>

<p>I should also note that RIT is trying to increase activities on campus by supporting lots of clubs. There are over 100 clubs right now available to students. However, my feeling is that this just isn’t enough to overcome the other problems.</p>

<p>Finally, the US News ranking system builds in alumni contribution as a factor in the admission process. Generally schools with strong sports programs have high alumni contribution percentages. Frankly, I feel that this is a rediculous factor in ranking a school.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It’s REALLY cold in Rochester: Rochester is very, very cold most of the year. In addition, they get a lot of snow , and it can be quite overcast and dreary most of the year. Thus, kids tend to stay indoors a lot. I guess many kids get cabin fever. The weather can also be depressing if kids are cooped up for too long a period of time.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT has a mediocre male/female ratio. The ratio of guys to girls was about 70-30. RIT is trying to remedy this,but, most of the girls are found in the school of imaging science and art. Thus, their might be one girl for ten guys in the science and engineering courses. This is a REAL problem for them that they need to remedy.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, many girls tend to study humanities related stuff such as history, English, etc. These areas on not strong at RIT and thus, don’t attract a lot of students who want to major in humanities related majors ( other than for art and design).</p>

<p>Of course, if you are a girl, I would imagine that you would love the male-female ratio.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>RIT does have a coop program. US News rankings really doesn’t handle schools with coops well. This may require many kids to graduate in 5 years or more. This, thus reduces the potential 4 year graduation rate.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids might take jobs as a result of their coop: Sometimes kids are offered full time jobs through their coop experience. They might then switch to part time status and take 6 or more years to graduate.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT doesn’t seem to have the support system found at some other schools. At some schools such as Syracuse University, Villanova,etc., there is a strong support system of tutors, counseling and other forms of help for students.Although professors are accessible at RIT, I never got the feeling that there was nearly as much hand holding and support for kids as found at other schools. Perhaps because RIT is less expensive than Syracuse and that of other private schools, they don’t have the money for this type of support. Who knows? </p></li>
<li><p>Housing is a real problem: Althoughl RIT guarantees housing for all the years of a student, it doens’t guarantee that you will either like the housing or be near your classes. While they do have some nice appartment type housing, geting them is very difficult. You either must win the lottery or get to know someone who has an appartment. They do have plenty of housing at a nearby hotel and other places that require a bus in order to get to the main campus. Frankly, who wants to have to take a bus to get to class each day? I guess kids can bring their cars and pay for parking as an alternative. Still, it is a far cry from having dorms that are close by and within walking distance of all classes. They have too few dorms that are within walking distance, and these are mostly for freshmen and for some sophomores however.</p></li>
<li><p>RIT is not as diverse at it appears. I believe that great diversity in all ways helps the educational program for students and provides more things to do since differing groups look for and sponsor differing types of activities. RIT has some decent geographic diversity although most kids are from NY.They don’t, however, have a lot of nomal minorites that you would expect to see at most schools. For example, RIT has a very small Jewish presence among students for whatever reason. While I was touring RIT, I also didn’t see a lot of underrepresented minorities. I don’t know how much this affects the quality and quantity of things to do, but I suspect that it does have some affect.</p></li>
</ol>

<h2>There are probably others who can paint a broader picture than I. These are just based on my opinions while touring the school. I certainly could be in error regarding one or more points. See the thread, “Overview of Our Vist to RIT” found in the RIT forums </h2>

<p>CW: 91% freshman retention
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-freshmen-least-most-likely-return)
Division of Computer Science
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, Ohio</p>

<p>The Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (EECS) at Case Western Reserve University (CWRU) has recently undergone a restructuring to recognize an internal Division of Computer Science (CS) and Division of Electrical and Computer Engineering (ECE). This restructuring is in recognition of the evolving needs of CS and ECE, and in anticipation of a phase of growth and expansion for the department (and its divisions) over the next 3 to 5 years. Accordingly, the CS division invites applications for several faculty positions from individuals desiring to be part of our growth and expansion through making fundamental contributions to computer science and fields impacted by computer science. Appointments at all ranks, including an endowed professorship, are of interest and will be considered. All applicants must either hold great promise for or have a significant track record of research leadership and grant funding, as well as teaching excellence and service contributions. All applicants must have a Ph.D. in Computer Science or a closely related field. Appointments will be made until the positions are filled, beginning as early as Fall 2003.</p>

<p>The department is pursuing the development of leading academic programs and research thrusts influenced by the Bio-Micro/Nano-Info theme. Bioinformatics, including computational genomics and neurosciences, is a designated growth area of the CS division, with world-class opportunities for impact through collaboration with the School of Medicine at CWRU. Two other designated growth areas are data mining and visualization, and pervasive networks and distributed systems. There are exceptional opportunities for impact in these areas through exciting collaborations with a wide range of initiatives in the department (i.e., the ECE division) and on campus. Accordingly, special attention will be given to candidates with strong background in: computer algorithms; networks and distributed computing; data and knowledge management; software engineering; human-computer interaction; graphics, visualization and multimedia; and computer architecture. Further information about the positions and the department is available at <a href=“http://www.eecs.cwru.edu/[/url]”>http://www.eecs.cwru.edu/&lt;/a&gt;. </p>

<p>CWRU is located at the heart of the University Circle, which is a cultural center of Cleveland, surrounded by museums, including Cleveland Museum of Art, Crawford Auto Museum, and Cleveland History Museum, as well as the Severance Hall, which is the home of Cleveland Symphony Orchestra.
Application packages must include: (i) a current curriculum vitae; (ii) statement of research and teaching interests; and (iii) biographies of the references providing letters of recommendation. Applicants must arrange for at least three letters of recommendation to be submitted directly. All applications and nominations should be sent to:
Faculty Search Committee
Division of Computer Science
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Case Western Reserve University
10900 Euclid Avenue</p>

<h2>Cleveland, OH 44106-7071</h2>

<p>Ohio’s Case Western Reserve University Chooses LifeSize to Build Global Research Gateway in California
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In 2007, Mehran Mehregany, Goodrich Professor of Engineering Innovation, was asked by the university to establish a presence for Case in Southern California to connect to global research clients. Striving to maintain relationships with the large group of graduate and Ph.D. students he leads, communicating without video conferencing systems was challenging.
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<p>i know someone doing CS in waterloo. In general waterloo has a really really good co-op program. This is especially true in the computer area. If you go into the co-op option you finish in 5 years but you do a pattern of work-study-work-study until you’re done. Its great cause it breaks up your terms so you don’t get as stressed out and you always have a work term to look forward to. </p>

<p>Are you from the states? It that why Waterloo is the hardest to get into?</p>

<p>I’m in a strange position with regards to this, as I live next to the RIT campus, and have several friends who are going there for CS, but I am planning to attend CWRU next year. From what my friends have told me, all of RIT’s CS courses are very theoretical, and all the projects are done in python. (The professors expect you to learn the syntax on your own time.) The major sounds quite demanding.
RIT is different from most technical schools in that it is almost entirely undergraduate focused, and most students take five years to graduate because of the required co-ops. (That is why I chose not to apply.) It is also different in that there are many students in graphic arts programs or humanities programs, and engineers do not necessarily dominate the campus.
As far as the campus is concerned, as you probably know, the whole complex is relatively isolated in the middle of a swamp. As a result, it is flat, and VERY windy during the winter. While all the academic buildings are connected, you have to walk across campus from the residential areas to get to class every day. Most students seem to have cars. RIT is certainly the least selective out of your list. The campus feels large and diverse-like a public university.
Case and RPI both seem to have much more selective admissions and more competitive student bodies. I like Case because it has a strong tech focus without being completely nerd dominated. RPI is the quintessential tech school-barely any girls, focused almost entirely on engineering, science and related fields. It is probably the best cs program on your list besides Waterloo (sorry, I know nothing about Waterloo. The other schools were all on my college list.)
I think your decision should really come down to what your long term goals are, and how you like the different campus enviroments. If your goals is to get a job right out of college, RIT is probably the best choice because of their co-op programs. If you want to get into graduate school, RPI or Waterloo are probably your best bets. Just go to the one you can best see yourself at, and that best matches your priorities.
(I doubt they will all cost the same. If you are a competitive student, RIT throws tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money at you. And it has the lowest cost to begin with.)</p>

<p>Waterloo is the best. By far. Their CS department is among the finest in the world and the coop program is literally second-to-none.</p>

<p>I would put Case Western second, as it is also a very reputable school. RPI is also a good school.</p>

<p>RE RIT… Since I can’t say anything nice, I won’t say anything at all.</p>

<p>go to waterloo. Its co-op program is great. I know someone in CS with mediocre grades, intelligence and really bad work ethic. But hes gotten great co-op placements.</p>

<p>There’s no way you’re getting through Waterloo CS with mediocre intelligence or work ethic. Be prepared to devote most of your free time to programming in upper years…or just switch into mathematics like I did.</p>

<p>the thing with waterloo’s CS is that all the courses are offered pretty much all 3 terms (fall, winter, summer) That way, you can take as few courses as you want and make it through in a reasonable time. At other schools doing this would just take forever as you’d have to wait for the classes to roll around again. I believe 3 is the min to be considered full time in CS. </p>

<p>If you’re taking 3, you can afford to slack off compared to those taking 5-6 and still be okay on the bell curve. </p>

<p>Taking fewer courses than your classmates and doing co-op would take way more that four years but it can be done.</p>

<p>Can you talk alittle more about Waterloo. You mentioned that you are a math major. My son is interested in Math (actuary science) or engineering (probably mech or envir). We are from Virginia. The info they sent is somewhat confusing. Did you get any merit aid? When did you find out you were accepted? It seems like they don’t let you know you were accepted until the late spring early sumer. He is also interested in coop. Any help is great.</p>

<p>Waterloo engineering offers are sent out in several waves between now and early May (and Math is similar). If your son is considering US offers with a May 1 deadline, he should contact the admissions office to make sure his file is considered before then.</p>

<p>Financial aid is close to nil, unless he’s a Canadian citizen or Permanent Resident of Canada.</p>

<p>Thank you for the help. My son is just a junior and starting to look at colleges. I read about Waterloo on this site and requested info. This school peaked my son’s interest but we need some merit aid. We will not qualify in the US for need based aid but could use some help. Any other Waterloo comments?</p>

<p>even as a Canadian citizen waterloo’s financial aid isn’t great so i definately wouldn’t expect anything if you’re American.</p>

<p>True, since more than half of the school is registered in co-op most classes are offered year round. So if you really wanted to you could take 3 classes a semester and hopefully breeze through. Even still, the CS courses are especially time consuming and difficult (but more so time consuming). I pity the few souls that I know taking CS 350 Operating Systems right now…I know some that have spent 50+ hours on a single assignment. Plus you have to take a slew of MATH and STAT courses including ‘Intro to Combinatorics’ which is no joke. People always talk about Waterloo bell curving but I’ve never had any of my courses bell curved other than this one finance course I took…but I digress.</p>

<p>Hokiefan, Waterloo is top notch for math (especially actuarial science), engineering and cs. Waterloo has the reputation as one of the best schools for actuarial science in North America. Anyway, to get into the act sci program you actually apply for honours math. If you maintain a 75% average (which is decently hard to do) after first year then you are allowed to declare act sci as a major.</p>

<p>The school is really focused on engineering and even right now, new engineering buildings are sprouting up everywhere. I think they’re just finishing Engineering V and are about to begin Engineering VI…not to mention they’re almost finished this monster of a building, to be known as the quantum-nano centre, to jointly host nanotechnology engineering students as well as the institute for quantum computing. It’s strong in any field of engineering (although I don’t happen to know anyone personally in environmental) but especially so in computer and electrical.</p>

<p>As for merit money, unless your son is absolutely outstanding, I don’t think you’ll receive much. I’m not sure about international scholarships but for Canadians, 85-89% average corresponds to $1000; 90-94% to $2000; 95+% to $3500. That’s for automatic entrance scholarships. You may want to look into and apply for more specific scholarships that can be found on the Waterloo website.</p>

<p>But if your son does apply make sure he takes the co-op route. Great experience and it helps cut down on tuition costs quite a bit (expect to make, on average, $10k-$12k per term for six co-op terms) although it is quite a bit of extra work.</p>

<p>I honestly can’t remember when my offer of acceptance came in, but I want to say sometime in March or April. I know I visited the campus for the first time in late spring after finding out I was accepted.</p>

<p>Aside from academics, Waterloo is pretty boring as a whole but it is a great place for university students. With Wilfrid Laurier University literally across the street (all the good looking girls go to Laurier) there’s about 40,000 university students packed together in this one place. Plenty of bars and entertainment around. I do have to say though, that UW’s school spirit is awful. I mean in your traditional sense of school spirit I guess; sparsely anybody cares about the sports teams, all the students are competing against each other more or less. But at the same time, most students would not hesitate to recommend the school for its academic rigour and reputation. I have a few theories as to why this is the case but I’ll spare you the agony and save it for another post.</p>

<p>Hartigan,
Thanks for all the information. You answered some questions that I had not even thought of. It is hard to find schools that have good engineering and actuary science in them. Usually if the school is good in one discipline, they are just okay or nonexistent in the other.
My son will be a strong candidate for any school but I would not call him outstanding. I guess what I’m trying to figure out is will the money made from coop offset most of the expenses that I cannot afford to pay. This goes for other schools, not just Waterloo.</p>

<p>No problem Hokiefan, my pleasure.</p>

<p>Co-op will offset a lot of expenses but by no means all. To give you perspective, I came to the school from out of province. Currently, after my first term of third year academically (just three more terms!) and after completing three co-op terms (three more to go as well), I’m 38 thousand dollars in debt to the bank on my line-of-credit. I have another co-op term coming up so that balance should be reduced somewhat. Of course, you also have to take into consideration that your son will be an international student and his tuition will be significantly more than mine.</p>

<p>Also keep in mind that they amount I’ve spent seems unreasonably high compared to other people I’ve talked to.</p>

<p>Anyway, I think the best way to do it is to sit down with your son and budget out everything from year one. This includes tuition, rent, food, other living expenses etc. Do the same thing for the co-op terms just include the income you’ll be making. And then when you get the total be sure to multiply by some factor, say 1.3, since we’re all a little overly optimistic.</p>

<p>Hartigan,</p>

<p>Again what a wealth of information. May I ask what you are studying at Waterloo? You mentioned Math and in regard to act. sci. Do most people get into their intended major after completing a year of math? What happens if you don’t? The other question I have for you is how hard is it to switch schools? If my son comes in as a math major and decides after the first year it really isn’t for him, can he switch to engineering?</p>

<p>The cost issue is really hard to figure out. Each program is different and I have no idea how much it might cost to loive off campus in Waterloo. I can afford to pay 23,000 /year (canadian) so I’m looking to have tht rest covered. That was why I was hoping the co-op deal might help out. I knew it would not cover everything. I read the engineering department offers international students 5,000/year for outstanding grades and ECs. But I don’t know if my son would qualify. Thanks again for all your help. He just may apply next year and see what happens. Does anyone know if there is a school in the US with the caliber of actuary science and engineering depts?</p>

<p>Hokiefan,</p>

<p>I’m studying Mathematics/Financial Analysis and Risk Management (FARM). In this program you can do one of two specializations:Chartered Financial Analyst or Professional Risk Manager and you graduate with a Bachelor of Mathematics. I’m doing the CFA specialization and plan to write the first CFA test in my fourth year. I’m not pursuing an actuarial degree but I’ve been contemplating writing the first couple of tests as I feel my coursework has already prepared me for them and many other people around me are writing them. Also, it is possible to combine different majors. So I could, hypothetically, be doing a double major in Financial Analysis and Risk Management and Actuarial Science.</p>

<p>Most of the math programs do not require you to declare your major after first year. If you look at this page: [Become</a> a Student | University of Waterloo](<a href=“Programs | Undergraduate Programs | University of Waterloo”>Programs | Undergraduate Programs | University of Waterloo) and scroll down to the Faculty of Mathematics you will see that any program with a ‘‡’ next to it is an entry-level program; Actuarial Science does not have the ‘‡’ because you have to declare it after first year.</p>

<p>The engineers I know liked to brag about, in first year, how if you were in the Engineering Faculty you could drop into the Mathematics Faculty, and if you were in the Mathematics Faculty, you could drop into the Science Faculty. I’m not sure whether this is true or not but if it is, I would suspect it only applies to first year. Since if you were to transfer after first year, most of your credits would not transfer faculties and it would be like starting school all over again. Not to mention, I don’t think most of the engineers are cut out for math! Also, if you transfer in first year they would most likely look at your high school record again. I know that I couldn’t have transferred into Engineering since I didn’t take chemistry in my senior year of high school. Personally, I don’t know anybody that has transferred into any other faculty but Arts after not being able to handle Math or Engineering.</p>

<p>Well, looking at international tuition costs, it’s about $30,000 for two academic terms of math or engineering plus books and supplies. Residence on-campus is about $2000 for one term. It’s about another $2000 for a meal plan on-campus each term. I would highly recommend your son stay in residence first year since that’s where I met most of my good friends in Waterloo to this day. I stayed in Rod Eydt Village in first year and it was an awesome experience. You share a dorm room with another guy and it’s kind of cramped but you make a ton of friends and you’re able to party with everybody on your floor every weekend. The other residences are more low key and I’m not sure about how the first year experience would be. But anyway, back to the finances, it costs about $400-$500/month to live off-campus in a house with 3 or 4 other people relatively close to the university. It costs about $700/month if you want to get a bachelor pad off-campus.</p>

<p>Suppose your son lives in residence, and gets the average meal plan. That’s $8000/two academic terms. Basically for every two academic terms you’ll have a co-op (there’s an extra academic term at the beginning), so if he makes $11,000 average and we discount the same $4000 for food and rent. That’s:</p>

<p>Tuition, Food, and Rent (two academic terms)…$38,000
Co-op Net Income (net of food and rent)…(7,000)</p>

<p>So that’ll be $31,000, which unfortunately creates a shortfall of $8,000 from what you’re able to cover. Plus we haven’t accounted for entertainment costs or anything. Perhaps you should look into securing a line-of-credit with the bank as I did. I’m paying an interest rate of prime+2 which isn’t bad considering prime’s at 2.25% right now. My parents had to co-sign on the loan but they didn’t have to re-mortgage or anything like that.</p>

<p>Wait, wait I did this wrong…Pfft and to think I call myself a math student…in first year it’s two academic terms and then one co-op. And then after that you alternate back and forth between co-op and academic terms. So to get an accurate picture of your yearly costs you have to look at a two-year period and divide to get the average or better yet look at the entire undergrad and take the average i.e. </p>

<p>Normal sequence:</p>

<p>First year: school-school-work
Second year: school-work-school
Third year: work-school-work
Fourth year: school-work-school
Fifth year (Note that co-op programs extend into fifth year): work-school</p>

<p>So in total you have: 8 academic terms and 6 co-op terms</p>

<p>Based on my calculations above 2 academic terms = $38,000, 1 co-op term = $7,000</p>

<p>Total costs: $152,000
Total income: $42,000</p>

<p>For a total of $110,000</p>

<p>Yearly average cost (over 5 years): $22,000</p>

<p>Now we haven’t accounted for entertainment and miscellaneous expenses but that will leave you with a surplus of $1000. Sorry for scaring you!</p>

<p>You just have to pay more some years than others.</p>

<p>^ I think your figures are a little bit high. Isn’t act. sci charged like normal math coop, not FARM? The latter is more expensive…</p>

<p>Ah, yes, noimagination is right. Well what I put above still applies for engineering I think. But Actuarial Science should be less expensive. Namely, $23,500 per two terms including books and supplies [Become</a> a Student | University of Waterloo](<a href=“http://www.findoutmore.uwaterloo.ca/financing/expenses.php]Become”>http://www.findoutmore.uwaterloo.ca/financing/expenses.php).</p>

<p>Total costs: $126,000
Total income: $42,000</p>

<p>= $84,000</p>

<p>Yearly average cost = $16,800</p>

<p>So you could most definitely afford to do act sci.</p>