Confusing situation

<p>I'm not sure if my situation is at all unique, but I thought I'd ask for some advice from CC. I have wanted to go to Columbia since sophomore year, when I visited and had one of my good friends decide to go there. I've been working hard ever since, trying to get the best scores I can, be at the top of my class, and participate in everything possible. As a result, I'm looking at a crazy senior year, with 6-7 APs and 4 leadership positions along with other ECs. At first, I decided that this was what I wanted, not only because it would help me during admissions but also because I actually enjoy all of it.</p>

<p>However, the reality is that even if I get into Columbia, it is almost certain that I will not be able to go. My parents make about $200,000, so if I get any financial aid, it will be very small. They refuse to send me anywhere that costs upwards of around $20,000-$30,000. Is it even worth it for me to work so hard and get my hopes up, when I could do much less and likely still get into my state school? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is there any reason for me to actually apply to Columbia, or am I just wasting my time?</p>

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<p>Loans are always an option. You can have your parents pay the 20k, and take out loans for the rest. Don’t forget work too.</p>

<p>It’s tough, so you have to evaluate your priorities. Do you want to graduate with substantial debt, just for the Columbia name?</p>

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<p>If you really enjoy your activities and your AP courses, then they aren’t really work.</p>

<p>Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean about them not really being work, and I guess I’ll just have to start some effective organizational plan to make sure I can stay on top of it all.</p>

<p>I know this might not help, but as a student at Columbia, do you honestly think it would be worth it to spend so much money and end up with a ton of debt?</p>

<p>^I can’t speak for Epaminondas, but I think the answer depends on your future career path. If you hope to be a teacher after college, then going into massive debt to attend Columbia is probably not worth it unless you want to be stuck paying back student loans for more than a decade. You can certainly get a comparable education elsewhere (corny but true: your education is mostly what you make of it). On the other hand, if you want to go into a lucrative profession (especially one where brand names might matter), then that debt may be justified. </p>

<p>Your position isn’t that uncommon. I’ve seen variations of your question around the fora, so I suggest that you look through some past threads.</p>

<p>I’m fortunate that my parents are willing to pay for all of my undergrad education so that I don’t have to take out any student loans. But if that weren’t the case, then I probably would’ve gone with a cheaper school that offered merit aid, since I want to go to med school and don’t wish to add undergrad loans on top of med school loans.</p>

<p>Sorry asha, I’m part of the class of 2013. demeter’s advice carries far more weight</p>

<p>Keep up the great work and EC’s…going to the most affordable school, with your parents paying 20K is a sound fiscally responsible decision in this economy - going undergrad to Columbia and accruing so much debt seems to be a poor decision. Save the debt and loans for graduate school…get the best grades you can in college - the undergrad “name” will usually not have as much weight as the stellar grades at your state institution (without any debt)!! Perhaps you can apply to the Honors Programs at some of the state institutions to be challenged and achieve that status on your diploma…now that goes a long way!!</p>

<p>actually, government student loan isn’t even that bad cuz there’s little to no interest and you pay it back over a long time. My dad took out a full loan for his education, and now he pays like 100 bucks every month for a few decade haha.</p>

<p>My, how times change! I left higher education in 1981, with three years of tuition and fees from one of the most expensive universities embodied in my student loans. I could have emerged without student loans by attending another institution, but the chance to hobnob with the best and the brightest was irresistible. I believe, based on my own limited experience, that taking out loans for the unparalleled experience of hanging with those folks was well worth it. Today’s practical outlook is not without merit, but I think the benefits of spending four years with Columbia-type students is well worth the cost.</p>

<p>I’m going to second demeter, if you graduate with a marketable skill then it could easily be worth it. Like if you wish to be a lawyer or work on wall street columbia will give you a significant edge at for example getting into a top law school or getting a high paying job on wall street. I can talk of wall street, and say that going to Columbia over a less prestigious univ, will easily open up over $100,000 worth of doors (or even an initial door worth more than $100,000 over a few years). If it’s Columbia vs. Berkeley, Berk wins because of the debt, if it’s Columbia vs. SUNY, I’d pick Columbia.</p>

<p>If you are going to major in something in the humanities and not go onto wall street or law school (which still leaves many fulfilling jobs open) then you probably do not want to take on the debt, it will saddle you with stress for several years and push you into a profession that you do not want to be in.</p>

<p>Access to wall street careers is hardly the only advantage Columbia offers its students, guys. Let’s not get all snobby and risk understating the real case.</p>

<p>I’ve prattled on about these issues elsewhere in far greater depth, but the basic idea is that going to a top institution actually does develop your mind and sharpen your reasoning, your judgment, your wisdom (such as it is :slight_smile: ) and raises your expectations for what you can get out of yourself, your career, and anything else you focus on. It pays off in a ton of ways that can’t be easily expressed.</p>

<p>I came home from my freshman year and found that my brain had an extra “gear” and that I was assuming everyone else was operating at that speed, making the same intuitive leaps, seeing and dealing with potential problems (at home and at my summer job) that Columbia students would… and found that I had to dial back my expectations. Being in an atmosphere like that raises your game.</p>

<p>And it’s not just in how fast you think and how quickly you pick up new concepts. You’ll learn many many things from your classmates about how to work productively, about what constitutes an actually good job on something - higher standards that may not exist at every college, especially if you come from a high school where you’re used to everyone practically applauding everything you do, even when you know, privately, it’s not your best. From your classmates and the example most of them will set, hopefully you’ll learn some humility, too, because no matter how good you are coming in, there will be someone there who’s better than you at most things.</p>

<p>You’ll learn in your classes at a pace that would impress all but the most rigorous of high schools, and learn from instructors who are either brilliant at teaching and inspiring their students, or brilliant at research in their area of expertise, or sometimes even both (Horst Stormer comes to mind).</p>

<p>And once you get out, you’ll have the respect of anyone who knows something about the rigors of a top education. Columbia’s alumni network is powerful because they, too, went through the same process (both the selectivity at admissions and the efforts required to graduate), and have seen it pay off in the form of success in their careers. That network may turn into advisors for you, guides to a particular path, or even job opportunities. Your own classmates, too, will be valuable not just as friends but as allies, by default, in your struggles in the real world. </p>

<p>I mean, look at all the alums on this board, posting to help even those who are merely INTERESTED in going to Columbia. You think we get paid? Think we get some sort of adrenaline rush out of this? No, we just love our school and (nearly) everything associated with it. How many schools out there inspire such devotion to things other than their glamour sports programs? Precious few.</p>

<p>So, in your case, asha, it may be a tough choice. You may not even get in this fall. But if you do, you at least have a fair proposition to make to your parents. Asking them to cough up 20, 30 or even 40k a year to attend a second-rate private college would be a tough sell indeed. But you can at least fairly argue, with reason behind you, that going to Columbia would be a life-changing experience that would make you a better person, open up doors to you, and would more than pay off their investment in you.</p>

<p>They may not buy the argument. But it would be good to at least have the choice ahead of you, no? Soldier on with your studies, write great applications, and strongly consider applying ED. You’re far more likely to regret not giving yourself the option, than you are to regret putting in the effort (and knowing you’re Columbia material) even if you end up going elsewhere because of financial considerations.</p>

<p>Denzera - how is this far less depth than normal? Did you get stuck trying to write a short response and turning it into a novella?</p>

<p>To join the chorus - here is what you can do. Get someone, preferably an adult, to explain to your parents what kind of loan opportunities are out there and how to structure paying. When I applied, I urged my mom asked a financial analyst to help her strategize so she could pay for school and still put money in retirement. It doesnt mean they have to commit then, but I think understanding 1) it is normal to take on some debt, 2) it is possible to pay for college and still maintain other priorities, helps parents get a good sense of what is happening. Of course you can educate yourself on these issues - this was something else I did, and basically came to my parents with a proposal - but usually another adult and someone not in the family gives them perspective.</p>

<p>No matter how awesome you make Columbia seem to them, what you have to think about is no longer your priorities, but that your parents have different ones - and if they are in conflict it is going to make for an ugly situation. In the end it isnt just about you - but about any siblings you have, their retirement and in an uncertain economic time even the ability to maintain current payments. I think that is misunderstood by students that they are not the only person ‘going to college.’</p>

<p>It is for this reason that you should probably not apply ED. Apply to a lot of second tier (and 1.5 tier) schools that are known for offering a lot of merit aid (Wash U, UChicago, Emory, Rice and a bunch more) as that will allow you to have simulacrum of a Columbia education and all the virtues Denzera explains. Though I think merit aid is a travesty (it goes to the wealthiest more than to the poorest) so long as it still exists, it means that it is a way for high middle class folks to lower cost without having to think State school or bust. </p>

<p>I think the one thing to add then is that it is not worth creating a rift between you and your parents. There are other schools that fit in other niches outside of Columbia that 1) might give you money, 2) be just as good an academic/social fit, 3) still offer you a challenging academic experience. See the college choice as a negotiation not just of your interests, but of the other actors and interested parties around you.</p>

<p>As a final comment on “working so hard.” This is probably the most disappointing and for me frustrating part of your statement. If you work that hard you could qualify for scholarships like Toyota, Coca Cola that might pay for college - [url=<a href=“Find Scholarships for College and Trade School | Fastweb”>Find Scholarships for College and Trade School | Fastweb]FastWeb[/url</a>]. How hard you work might allow you to get into honors programs, accelerate through college quicker, be competitive for a number of other unique programs. And then it is just what it says about you - if you are willing to quit just because you wont get into Columbia, then well I guess I would question if you ought to go to Columbia. If you are working hard not for its own sake, but for college admissions then you don’t understand the subtext of the admissions process. Those who work hard get into good schools because good schools want people who work hard. </p>

<p>I know you said you enjoy hard work, but I guess by the end of reading your post, I don’t believe you. How can you enjoy hard work and then intimate that you think you should quit? Yes, I understand it is frustrating to have a goal and perhaps not reach it. But welcome to the real world - you are going to see tons of barriers in your way. It is thinking on the fly and figuring out what you really care about. Columbia is great, I love the place, but I know I could have loved other places just as fervently.</p>

<p>There are millions of ways to get to where you want to go (including perhaps having Columbia in the picture somewhere), but if you narrow yourself to I apply and get financial aid or not, then you are going to just disappoint yourself and create tension with your parents. None of which is worth it. Broaden your search and broaden your options.</p>

<p>Apply! Of course you should give it a shot! You never know how much financial aid you’re going to get, anyways. My parents make about the same as yours and I received very generous aid far beyond what my family expected, so it’s always worth the shot!</p>

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I’ll go with “diarrhea of the keyboard”. :smiley:

My recommendation to apply ED is a strategic choice. </p>

<p>(1) First she has to be convinced that Columbia is a better choice for her than the kinds of schools you list. Her first post suggests such certainty, but of course she needs to be sure. But if and when that’s the case,
(2) applying ED will give her a boost in the admissions process, and once admitted she’ll have some leverage in the financial aid process.
(3) Once she’s convinced she has the best financial deal she’s going to get from Columbia, then she can approach her parents and figure out how to bridge whatever gap exists. And making arguments like mine above will be key in motivating them to help her out. But yeah, AG, you’re quite right that she’ll need to approach them like an adult, figure out their priorities, and see how best she can fit into those. Basic salesmanship. Easy to say, hard to do (especially for an 18-year-old).</p>

<p>And if she isn’t convinced that it’s worth it to try the above, then I agree, she probably shouldn’t apply ED. But that would stand her the best chance of attending Columbia, which is her claimed goal. If she’s not quite as keen on that goal as she’d have us believe, then you’re right, ED is a bad idea and she should cast a wider net.</p>

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Federal student loans are very limited. They are the Perkins loan (very limited availability and need based, with an interest of 5%) and the Stafford loan. Stafford loans have a maximum of $5500 for a freshman of which a maximum of $3500 may be subsidized. The subsidized is based on financial need which the OP probably will not be eligible for with parental income of $200,000. An unsubsidized Stafford loan has an interest rate of 6.8% - hardly ‘little to no interest’. The days of really low interest on student loans are in the past I am afraid.</p>

<p>The other federal loan is a parent loan - the PLUS loan - which would have to be taken out by the parents and has an interest rate of 8.5%.</p>