<p>as a conservative (fiscally/intl politics but not socially) applicant from India - i was trying to refrain from posting because of my obvious biasness. just some thoughts
- ppl have diff. thoughts/ideologies...why is it so wrong from brown to invite a conservative speaker...just hear him out and if u dont like it...thts fine as well...hell, f-911 was shown everywhere - in red and blue states...n many conservatives (incl me) even went to see that 'show'
- bout british raj/india - i agree with dsouza. as some1 already pointed out...many of the advancement tht india is enjoying today is coz of the british raj...the infrastructure...the english language, etc. is all coz of the occupation...did my grandparents like it...maybe not...is india still poor coz of that occupation...maybe yes...but just like iraq...indian provinces were so much involved in fighting each other before the occupation, that there was no development. it took an outside threat and a 250 yrs of occupation to unite india.
- the whole thing about rudeness - if ppl can listen and respect other ppl's thoughts...maybe they dont deserve to be @ brown. as an ivy league, i would like to think that it attracts some of the smartest minds in the world and if people dont have the ability to have an open intellectual discussion about their differences, how are they going to discuss/argue/debate in class and in corporate environment after graduation??
- bout Indians being URM...i wish that was true...check out the MIT RD decision...n u'll realize the calibre of Indian students who got rejected...for an indian applicant at most US colleges...the acceptance run at about 3-5% max...and it should be also noted tht almost 50% of the applicants are 1500+, 2300+ with a lot of international/national recognition...btw - i dont support AA</p>
<p>adides, I think you would be fine at Brown. There is much more general respect for others' point of view than the D'Souza incident implies. I believe it was an isolated incident.</p>
<p>sbmom - thx for ur comment...i am not worried about me @ brown (if i get accepted) I am open minded enuf to discuss the little i know bout american politics. also the good thing bout my liberal friends will be that i wont be able to vote in the US...so there u go...i can bark as much as i want...but will never bite... :)</p>
<p>I believe SBmom should know more I about these things than I do, but all the kids I knew who talked about Brown called it the PC-U of the Ivies. It seems like a great school, but of the kids I knew--the non-ultra-liberal ones--everybody thought it would be extremely hard to fit in to what's happening at Brown if you werent a politically-in-line liberal. I'm not liberal or conservative, but I thought it would be better to not limit myself exclusively to liberals. I needed a bit more diversity. </p>
<p>This thread only reinforces my view--hearing conservatives on campus talk about the actual reality at Brown, rather than just the gossip at my school.</p>
<p>D'Souza's view of intellectual diversity at Brown
<a href="http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/03/21/CampusNews/Dsouza.Sees.A.More.Politically.Diverse.Brown-898576.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/03/21/CampusNews/Dsouza.Sees.A.More.Politically.Diverse.Brown-898576.shtml</a></p>
<p>Views of prominent Republican alumni
<a href="http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/02/08/CampusNews/U.Grads.In.Politics.Shake.Liberal.Stereotype-855934.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/02/08/CampusNews/U.Grads.In.Politics.Shake.Liberal.Stereotype-855934.shtml</a></p>
<p>A direct quote from David Horowitz himself, the guy (whether you know it or not), is responsible for the entire recent debate about intellectual diversity on college campuses. He's the worst kind of right-wing rabble-rouser so I think this is saying a lot:</p>
<p>"When I arrived at Saloman Hall, the main campus theater, it was packed to the rafters with 600 students and many had to be turned away. Amazingly, there were no protesters and the Dean of the College, Paul Anderson, was there to introduce me itself an almost unprecedented occurrence in the 250 or so appearances I had made on college campuses (so thorough is the institutional dominance of the left in the university culture)...</p>
<p>The audience was multi-ethnic and more than half those present appeared to be politically liberal or left. Considering that I had been made a campus pariah and was a symbol of the right wing demon its radicals had been schooled to hate, the Brown audience was as polite and respectful as audiences at any university where I have spoken."</p>
<p>(frontpagemag.com)</p>
<p>thanks, dcircle, this squares with my memory of Brown. I was going to tell Kalidescope to PM you for accurate info since you are a current student!</p>
<p>Any person who is genuinely intellectual must be fearless. One must be open-minded and willing to listen to opposing views. Don't make the assumption that just because a campus leans left its students are not willing to do this.</p>
<p>Kalidescope, I am curious-- where would you think the campus environment would be more hospitibale to political diversity?</p>
<p>Dcircle,</p>
<p>I have no idea what your knowledge of the whole Horowitz deal was, but you have it all wrong. Yes, the second time he spoke, it proceeded peacfully. However, this was only under the direction of Simmons herself, several of the other deans, and a good troupe of police. (It is extremely unusual for Simmons or the deans to come to most events). Basically, the audience was told if they caused trouble, their academic career at Brown was in jeopardy, so yes there was a considerate attendance. </p>
<p>I think its important to note that after the initial ad-running-paper-stealing mob fiasco, the College Republicans withdrew their invitation to Horowitz because they were threatened with violence. Seriously. </p>
<p>I encourage all to research in depth the whole debacle. It is quite horrendous, and should be very embarrassing for any Brown students. Thankfully, the campus is gradually becoming more accepting (or so I am told by my junior and senior friends). </p>
<p>Not to be mean, but you really have no idea what goes on here unless you attend. You can't piece it together from the Herald. Im sorry.</p>
<p>SBmom, Im not a leftists so obviously im biased, but Im going to jump out there and disagree with you. The leftists are generally not interested in intellectual diversity. The classical liberals/libertarians/conservatives are much more so. I am quite fearless myself, but have taken lots of abuse in my short time here. Im have been introduced as "the conservative in our dorm" which is usually followed by, "oh" or "how could you be so stupid" (this is not a joke). This is also ironic considering Im a libertarian, but hey, I guess everything thats not a liberal can be grouped together right? I have been called a horrible person, a racist, sexist (any other hateful adjective you can really think of, and Im definitely NONE of those, they are ad hominem attacks). </p>
<p>I could tell you so many stories....(some of the worst was probably because it was during the election season, now it has died down a little)</p>
<p>I don't want to discourage people from comming, it only gets espescially bad if you are outspoken and like to challenge others. Plus, I enjoy debating my views (even though many Brown students don't know jack about political theory, or even modern politics, they just like to fit in with the crowd). But, please don't make judgements about Brown without going through the experience.</p>
<p>I apologize, that last post was really depressing!</p>
<p>In all seriousness Brown is an awesome place. A political orientation shouldn't be the reason you choose a school.</p>
<p>SBmom,</p>
<p>I dont have that much information on the politics of different schools. I can tell you that I applied to Yale ea and was accepted (non-binding, so I tried to have one good school in the bag); I also applied to dartmouth and have received a likely letter.</p>
<p>I will go to Dartmouth. One of the things (though not the only or even most important thing) I liked about Dartmouth was its intellectual diversity. Dartmouth is still overwhelmingly liberal, but it has a very respected and vibrant conservative community on campus. Im middle of the road and pragmatic politically and I like being around and exposed to diverse and respected views.</p>
<p>I think Brown is a really good school. It was at the top of my list for a while. One of the things that kept me from applying was the sense that it was politically/intellectually monolithic. This issue with DSouza seems to be an example of what Browns rep is in general. All the conservatives in this thread say Brown is not a nurturing place for conservatives or perhaps even moderates. The liberals, however (like you and dcircle) disagree and say conservative views are treated with respect and that openness and dialogue are liberal virtues.<br>
Liberals think conservatives are well represented and conservatives disagree and give examples to the contrary. And like I said that is the rep Ive come across, even from other liberals who want to go to Brownthey like the idea of being surrounded by other liberals like themselves and therefore see Brown as the place to be; one of my closest friends applied ed to Brown for this very reason (shes great, but I dont want everyone I know to think just like her). But a college shouldnt be exclusively or even dominantly of one view or another
I think. Its about diversity for me. If it helps, I think Brown is the best looking school in the Ivies and I love the feel.
(don't mean to crash the brown board)</p>
<p>Kal,</p>
<p>I agree with you but I do love this (as a liberal):</p>
<p>Since D'Souza started the conservative Dartmouth Review in the 1980s, he said he has become more aware of the political homogeneity of what he calls the "liberal East Coast schools."</p>
<p>"I am much more alert to the differences between Texas A&M and Brown," D'Souza said, drawing on his experiences delivering speeches to college campuses across the country. "How Brown is different from Dartmouth today, I'd be a little hard pressed to say."</p>
<p>The Dartmouth conservatives are all mad that Dartmouth is now overwhelmingly liberal. What is cool though is everyone is still friends, no joke. Maybe its because all the super-politicos love hanging out and arguing, haha.</p>
<p>Kalidescope,</p>
<p>Congrats on these great schools.</p>
<p>slipper made the point that first hit me as I read your post; D is an awful lot like B ... with better skiing!</p>
<p>I think all most elite schools will be rather challenging places for conservatives... lots of smart passionate people will be disagreeing with you. Which can be fun!</p>
<p>BTW I take my politics on an isssue by issue basis. On some I am way left, but many issues find me right of middle.</p>
<p>For me it is challenging and fun, but only to a certain extent. Maybe what I didn't correctly emphasize before is that people here take things on a personal level, and thats just NOT good. </p>
<p>And by the way, politics isn't a linear scale ;-). There is so much more than "right" and "left".</p>
<p>GH,</p>
<p>Good point about non linear... </p>
<p>The difficulty is that some political issues do feel incredibly personal. For example, abortion. Both sides take this very personally, because it is personal. 'Federal reserve monetary policy' will never inflame most people on such a gut level! (apologies to policy wonks!)</p>
<p>Predicition: everyone's views (including yours) will evolve. As grown up realities come home to roost, many opinions will change (in both directions.) </p>
<p>The problem at age 20 is most people have not had their views tested very much by life. They are newly minted, abstract, philosophical views. They are a 'first stab.' </p>
<p>Abortion feels different once you have borne a child. You may still be pro-choice, but the tragedy of an abortion is much more real when you have grieved an early miscarriage... Issues like defecit spending to feel really different when you are the head of a household charged with steering a responsible financial course. The "Clear Skies Initiative" will be seen very differently by parents of asthmatic toddlers thinking about yet-unborn grandchildren who will be breathing that air. </p>
<p>So if one lives in the real world and thinks, one's core philosophical views will be modified by pragmatism and life experience-- and the flip sides of each political coin will be more fully understood. </p>
<p>This allows me to have satisfying friendships, in adulthood, with people who vote differently and believe differently. On certain issues I still think they are WRONG!! But I better understand their reasoning and the honest path by which they have arrived at their conclusions, because these same shaping forces have acted on me, albeit differently. </p>
<p>I think it was F Scott Fitzgerald (?) who said that "true heroism is the ability to hold two opposing ideas together in one's mind-- and still act."</p>
<p>Thats why I do like an intellectually diverse environment, I love to debate and be challenged by those who disagree.</p>
<p>But the problem is, many Brown students don't know when to draw the line. People literally feel hatred towrads me sometimes, not towards my views or those of others. While I can think some views are just plain iilogical, horrible, what have you, I never judge the person, only the view. Brown students judge the people though, I swear. </p>
<p>Sorry to harp.</p>
<p>GHBrown08, </p>
<p>Just to let you know, I've been at Brown a long time (as an undergrad and now as a medical student). I was a student when the reparations ad was in the paper. Were you? I attended the Horowitz lecture. I've seen select Brown students act belligerent towards conservative views (Richard Perle lecture) but I've seen the majority Brown students consistently act in a respectful manner. Do you know that out of every school that printed the Horowitz ad (most refused to print it altogether), all issued appologies the next day except for the Brown Daily Herald. Interim-President Blumstein stood by the Herald's decision to print the add in the aftermath--they had the full support of the administration. In the end, the incident sparked a productive debate on campus about the difference between free speech and hate speech. </p>
<p>In my opinion, you are the one who has it all wrong. There's no doubt that conservatives have the minority opinion on campus but they are no more persecuted that the people who have the minority skin color or the minority sexual orientation. It's hard to be a minority of any kind because occasionally you will feel marginalized. But this issue is ubiquitous--not particular to Brown. Frankly, your view of Brown seems reactionary.</p>
<p>Yes, of course I knew the Herald refused to apologize.</p>
<p>One comment, if a student was told they were a horrible person because they were of a certain skin color or religion, the accuser would be expelled. Not so for a political non-conformist. (I don't like to say "conservative" because again, not all of us are hard line republicans).</p>
<p>an interesting (if pretty biased) take on the context behind the current debate</p>
<p>dcircle</p>
<p>Are you suggesting that those who have "the minority skin color" or "the minority sexual orientation" are persecuted at Brown? If you are, I don't believe it. If you're not suggesting that, then I guess you're saying that those who espouse a conservative view are treated just like everyone else. Yet we know that's not true based on the recent incident with Mr. D'Souza. Seems to me like GHBrown08 has it right.</p>
<p>Hey dcircle, I dont know if you will see this, but Dan Klein, a Santa Clara U Economics prof will be giving a talk about academic bias today Thursday the 7th, at 8pm in Wilson 204. I don't know much about him, but supposedly he knows he stuff so it could be pretty interesting. Unfortunately we weren't able to promote this even much, so it should be pretty small, but if you get a chance come check it out.</p>
<p>edit: *event</p>