<p>honestly, most of the other ivy's don't have the kind of endowment that harvard does. colleges like columbia, brown, cornell, etc have a significantly lower endowment per student than the schools who have eliminated loans so far (like harvard, swarthmore, amherst, etc).</p>
<p>i'm not sure most of the other ivys can afford to eliminate loans...yet. i'm sure they're working on how they can compete though.</p>
<p>See Fay Vinent's column in today's Wall Street Journal.</p>
<p>I don't necessarily think that the other five Ivies NEED to compete financially. With the exception of ED (and specialized programs like Wharton), I woud guess thay H, Y & P already win ~90% of the cross admit battles with the other 5 Ivies; (if a student wasn't interested in one of the three, they wouldn't apply). Thus, lowering the costs of attenance at H will have only a small marginal on its yield vs a vis the Other Ivies. Conversely, The Other Five would have to be practically free to an (UpperClass) $180k income family to win the cross admit battle with H at $18k COA.
And, those five just don't have the endowment to be 'free.' At best, they might look to eliminate loans, such as Staffords, but, again, they don't even need to do that bcos, from a practical matter, they compete more against each other, and not so much with HYP.</p>
<p>I guess I see it differently. Y, P, & S will likely do the same thing as H. It will work down the food chain. Wash U. Vandy, Duke, etc. will be under pressure because of Y, P, & S. This will work down to all schools with a large endowment. </p>
<p>How would this change affect legacies in admission?</p>
<p>The Fay Vincent article.</p>
<p>Free</a> Preview - WSJ.com</p>
<p>One new thought here, at least to me, is that these schools are becoming rich enough to be independent of their alumni.</p>
<p>If schools become more independent of their alums who will replace those students? Maybe more International Students?</p>
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Y, P, & S will likely do the same thing as H. It will work down the food chain. Wash U. Vandy, Duke, etc. will be under pressure because of Y, P, & S.
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<p>I'm not sure about that. It will be easier and smarter for Wash U. Vandy, Duke to just reject those students w/ IVY stats who can no longer be enticed w/ merit dollars for the next rung (v good students but not the valedictorian w/ stratospheric SATs). WUSTL, Vandy, and Duke are NOT going to win the cross admit battle w/ HYPS even it they offer the same FA package……better to reject those IVY stats students and up their yield.</p>
<p>A very well educated guess, streak.</p>
<p>streak:</p>
<p>P'ton already beat H when the eliminated loans and capped home eq. Will they (and Y) need to compete with H now? Yes, of course. But, its not so clear that the other Five will need to join into the competion with HYP. They (likley) already lose the cross admit battle big time with H big time, so lowering H's COA will only cost them a few admits per year. </p>
<p>Its not even clear to me that the merit aid schools (WashU, Vandy, USC, Emory, JHU et al) will have to pony up more aid dollars. The merit aid schools WILL lose more kids to H than the Other Five Ivies, but only marginally. And, since they already offer a full ride, there is not a whole lot that they can do to sweeten the offer (research grants, travel abroad $). But, unless H starts accepting hundreds/thousdands of more kids, the impact down the food chain is limited.</p>
<p>My guess would be that some of the less than super-rich colleges may partially follow suit, doing things like reducing or eliminating loans and/or making their EFC calculations more generous, but less to compete directly in the admissions battle with Harvard, than to address the same concern that H. had, an increasingly bifurcated student body, made up of many students from very high- and very low-income families, and an correspondingly squeezed middle class.</p>
<p>From the Vincent WSJ article:</p>
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Superb investment returns have been generated by managers of the endowments of some of the elite private universities, including Harvard, Yale, and even of small liberal arts colleges like Amherst and Williams. The endowments of these four institutions range from $1.7 billion at Amherst to $35 billion at Harvard, and the investment managers are getting annual returns well in excess of 20%. This is more than the alumni of any of those institutions could possibly contribute, and by an enormous margin.
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<p>It's important to note, however, that these 20% returns may very well not be sustainable indefinitely, and factors like the subprime market turmoil, the demographic realities of babyboomers cashing in their 401ks and IRAs as they hit retirement in the next decade, the huge holdings of dollar-denominated assets in China, etc. could eventually cause some endowments to come crashing down like a house of cards.</p>
<p>Some hedge fund and private equity managers have been very successful, but some very successful and very smart hedge fund managers have ultimately gone down in flames. (A notorious example is LCTM, one of whose managers had won the Nobel Prize in Economics. )</p>
<p>Thanks for the link tokenadult. It does sound like this is a big deal, if they also make significant changes to their asset rules as the language implies. Unless YPM&S want to see Harvard outclass them in calculated selectivity they are bound to follow suit. (Applying to Harvard now becomes a cheap lottery ticket for highly qualified students from middle and upper middle class backgrounds.) If all these schools respond by doing the same thing it really puts pressure on those who compete with these schools to respond in kind (which may be too expensive) or to offer full ride merit scholarships (as opposed to partial scholarships) to hold onto their best students. The musical chairs will settle out with some very high net worth students displaced from the top schools to be replaced with more talented middle and upper middle class kids. This sounds like a good thing to me, so cheers to Harvard!</p>
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Seems like Dartmouth already does. "Need based endowed scholarships"?
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<p>THe endowed scholarship is just what it is. All scholarship aid at Dartmouth is given on the basis of need. </p>
<p>When a student gets an endowed scholarship, the school likes to report back to the donor (Joe Smith), how the student is doing. </p>
<p>By the same token just like any other donation given, the donor can provide a stipulation for how they would like their money to be used; for example, the Joe Smith Endowed Scholarship is given to any student with a financial need and the recipient must maintain a 3.3 gpa. If the recipient does not maintain the 3.3 gpa, s/he may no longer recieve the Joe Smith endowed scholarship, however if they still have a financial need they will recieve a scholarship from the Dartmouth General scholarship fund .</p>
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While Dartmouth College does not award merit-based aid, the more generous packaging of these endowed scholarship awards represents our modest attempt to recognize the significant achievements of those most highly recommended by the Admissions Office. These funds are made possible through the generosity of individual alumni, Dartmouth Clubs, and other friends of the College, many of whom take a keen personal interest in the students designated for this honor.
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<p>I'm really sorry, I don't know what I'm missing here. What makes this not a merit scholarship? It's a genuine question, not a sarcastic one.</p>
<p>The scholarships don't exceed the calculated need of the student, so aren't merit scholarships in the normal sense. This type of preferential packaging (conversion of loan and work study to outright grant) is often called merit-within-need.</p>
<p>That's correct. It's what HYP already do for all need-based applicants.</p>
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<p>Evidence please? Not trying to be persnickety, but anyone accepted to H is talented, IMO.</p>
<p>unregistered: the "more generous" packaging is still need-based aid, not merit aid. I think D practices enrollment management by offering more grant and less need-based loans (such as a subsidized Stafford, or to Internationals who don't qualify for a Stafford) to students "with significant achievements." While one could argue that in and of itself is a form of merit, the student must still qualify under the financial need category.</p>
<p>It's based on "recogniz[ing] the significant achievements of those "most highly recommended by the Admissions Office." I understand that this is only available to students who have already qualified for need-based aid, but it sure seems like merit aid to me.</p>
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Its not even clear to me that the merit aid schools (WashU, Vandy, USC, Emory, JHU et al) will have to pony up more aid dollars. The merit aid schools WILL lose more kids to H than the Other Five Ivies, but only marginally. And, since they already offer a full ride, there is not a whole lot that they can do to sweeten the offer (research grants, travel abroad $). But, unless H starts accepting hundreds/thousdands of more kids, the impact down the food chain is limited.
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<p>I believe that the most lucrative merit awards at Vanderbilt cover tuition and fees, and some students then get an additional National Merit stipend, but it is still not a full ride. Most of room and board is still left over. So, there could be some additional sweetening of the offer.</p>
<p>BTW, all of those convinced that every single merit award student at Wash U, Vanderbilt, etc. would jump at the chance to attend Harvard instead...are wrong. Most probably would, although that is just a guess, but absolutely not all.</p>
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It's based on "recogniz[ing] the significant achievements of those "most highly recommended by the Admissions Office." I understand that this is only available to students who have already qualified for need-based aid, but it sure seems like merit aid to me.
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<p>This is actually mild--many selective schools offer top academic students, including those with no demonstrated need, outright cash to enroll; it can be used for summer internships, foreign travel, a service project, etc. Since none of these activities are requirements for graduation, it doesn't count under the definition of a merit scholarship.</p>