<p>I'm sure that Dartmouth isn't the worst of them by any means, it was just the only one I was aware of, and I don't know if other schools in the Ivy League do this, too.</p>
<p>Yes bluebayou it's true, even at Harvard, some students are more talented than others. The outcome I describe would seem to be what Harvard is hoping for. What group of students do you think they will displace? Or did I miss the announcement that they were enlarging the entering class size?</p>
<p>We need to consider the fact that Princeton is planning on adding 500 more undergrads in 2012. Maybe that also will be a trend. Create a larger class with higher stats.</p>
<p>curious:</p>
<p>Can't say I think that they'll "displace" anybody. And, I am certainly not smart enough to say that one economic class is "more talented". Perhaps you have data to support your thesis?</p>
<p>Look, H wins the cross-admit battle with EVERY college. That will continue. On the margin, perhaps a handful (or two) of kids who woulda gone to Yale, MIT or Emory or WashU or Caltech for the money will take the now much more attractive offer from H. However, one can not assume that these are ONLY middle class kids who will accept those offers. Nevertheless, those couple of dozen (max) are rounding errors in the admissions game, IMO. And, of course, I have already noted that Yale (and, perhaps MIT) will have to pony up to compete.</p>
<p>Rice is adding almost a thousand new students over the next ten years, for a target enrollment of 3800 undergrads. We're hoping that Rice (which already caps student loans at $14,525 for undergrads with any need, less to nothing for those with more need) will decide to eliminate student loans for all students and increase FA packages for all. Holding our breaths here!!!!</p>
<p>blue, </p>
<p>H's effort is not about winning more cross admit battles. It is about increasing the pool of applicants - appealing to those families that can't afford an elite education because they make too much to get aid under more traditional formulas. So presumably H gets even more applicants and can be even more selective.</p>
<p>What is curious though, is that H already tells us that little distinguishes the accepted from the rejected. Both groups are equally qualified. So what will change? H already seems pre-disposed to admit folks that have some sort of "star" aspect to their app package, whether it be winning an Intel, having a famous/wealthy parent, nationally recognized success in arts and such. Maybe we'll see more of this. Whether this translates into selecting future leaders (and big alumni donors) is an open question that will remain open for decades.</p>
<p>As I think about it, this seems like a contest a lot of other schools can afford to lose. Let the "stars" go to HYP. And let those stars fight among themselves for the limelight. Then let our more "normal" kids have a rather more normal college career. </p>
<p>We all know that there are many paths to success than through HYP. They typically win about 1/3 of the Rhodes scholarships each year (but not this year unless one gets creative and starts counting non US Rhodes from places like Canada or Africa...). That means 2/3 of the winners found a path to success outside HYP. And I'm sure this is true for every other success measure, too.</p>
<p>Bluebayou,</p>
<p>I can't say about the numbers. We along with Harvard will have to wait for the data to show up but logically if any new students are enticed to apply to Harvard and some of those are admitted (and go there) they will displace someone else who would have been admitted under the old system. That does not require data to support it's just logical, unless they expand the size of the entering class.</p>
<p>Bluebayou,</p>
<p>And by the way I am not arguing that all middle class kids are smarter than all upper class kids, or even that the avg. middle class kid is smarter than the avg. upper class kid. What I am arguing is that if the plan succeeds and adds more middle and upper middle class kids to the mix of students they have to displace somebody, and that somebody is likely to be less talented students who would have been admitted under the old system. I can't see why you would dispute this. They have to displace somebody who do you think it will be: URM's, recruited athletes, legacies, development candidates?</p>
<p>If some of these middle class admits fall into those groups they may displace some of those groups (except development which is silly) but a much more likely group to suffer from this change is marginal upper-class admits, who lack these hooks.</p>
<p>nmd:</p>
<p>I get the math and I concur with your second par. I think H holds such a place in higher ed, that it receives a gazillion apps from kids playing the lottery. And, IMO, those gazillion ALREADY include plenty of 'middle income' kids (however defined). Heck, my HS is 3,000 miles away, and kids still apply to H even tho they barely have the package to be accpeted to UCLA (in on appeal) or Cal (spring admit). But, H is the only such school with that such attraction, at least at our HS.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree, more apps with a higher yield means lower acceptance rate in the future. However, I see no evidence to suggest that the replacement will necessarily be 'middle class' kids (defined as those less than ~$120k income). The displacers could just as easily be $175k kids who might have ED'ed to one of the other Ivies or Duke, JHU, or, or....</p>
<p>curious: sry, I mis-interpreted your earlier post.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As I think about it, this seems like a contest a lot of other schools can afford to lose. Let the "stars" go to HYP. And let those stars fight among themselves for the limelight. Then let our more "normal" kids have a rather more normal college career.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed, especially for schools like Duke, WUSTL, Northwestern and the like.</p>
<p>One thing to remember about this bumping process is that it makes more excellent full fair students available to schools other than Harvard. This is good for those schools financially and frees up financial aid money so that it can be focused on merit aid to those students who might be picked off by Harvard (and other schools that follow Harvard's lead). The losers in this process are the schools that don't have deep pockets and who have painted themselves into a corner by scorning merit aid as beneath them.</p>
<p>"Yes bluebayou it's true, even at Harvard, some students are more talented than others. The outcome I describe would seem to be what Harvard is hoping for. What group of students do you think they will displace? Or did I miss the announcement that they were enlarging the entering class size?"</p>
<p>What this means to me is that Harvard will be less likely to have to go to their waiting list: Yield will be increased because Harvard-accepted students who may have accepted full rides at Flagship State U and places like Duke, UNC, Wash U and Wake Forest will accept Harvard.</p>
<p>"As I think about it, this seems like a contest a lot of other schools can afford to lose. Let the "stars" go to HYP. And let those stars fight among themselves for the limelight. Then let our more "normal" kids have a rather more normal college career."</p>
<p>I know it's hard to believe, but at Harvard, students aren't fighting among themselves for the limelight. Given the many majors and many ECs, there are plenty of opportunities for the many talented students to get their share of the limelight. Indeed, I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that everyone at Harvard has something that can make them stand out on campus or in the community -- if that's something that's important to them.</p>
<p>However, most students there aren't inspired to achieve by attempting to beat out other people, but are inspired to achieve because of their own interests. Whether they were at Harvard or Podunk U, they'd probably act the same way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know it's hard to believe, but at Harvard, students aren't fighting among themselves for the limelight.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's also my impression based on the Harvard alumni I know. There is always a danger of confusing the set {high school students who aspire to attend Harvard} and {students who are actually admitted to and enroll at Harvard}, which is a small subset of the first set. </p>
<p>It appears that the new single-deadline system, along with the announcement of new financial aid policies, will allow Harvard to be very choosy in selecting class of 2012 and allow it to emphasize admitting students who have made the most of economically limited opportunities. This seems to be something that the admission dean is determined to do this year. </p>
<p>The</a> Harvard Crimson :: Opinion :: New Possibilities in the Post-Early Admissions Era</p>
<p>Northstarmom,</p>
<p>Yes, yield should improve. In addition, I expect that a lot of middle and upper middle class kids will apply to Harvard who would not have bothered before.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know it's hard to believe, but at Harvard, students aren't fighting among themselves for the limelight.
[/quote]
It is rumored that Harvard has 60 or so Rhodes Scholarship applicants each year, for 32 slots total (US only). Most other schools have far fewer (Chicago routinely about 10 for example). If that's not fighting for the limelight, I don't know what is! Maybe it's for the same reason so many get high grades - no grade inflation, just so many brilliant students? :) In fairness though, Harvard does lead in Rhodes. Since 1998, they've had 34, most in the nation. Yale is second with 23 followed by Chicago and USMA with 15 each. One could argue on a % of applicants basis..., but let me quit while I'm ahead and not slammed by the Harvardphiles. :)</p>
<p>Not an ivy, but...
[quote]
Today, Rice University announced that tuition for the 2008-09 freshman class will be $29,960. One of the nation's most highly regarded comprehensive research universities, Rice has consistently kept tuition thousands of dollars below that of our peer institutions. Furthermore, Rice will increase both need-based and merit-based financial aid offerings. For families whose income is $60,000 or less, Rice will meet 100% of need eligibility without student loans. In addition, we will increase merit aid so that more families from all income levels will find Rice to be the best choice for undergraduate education in the country. For many years, Rice has been recognized as one of the top values in higher education by US News & World Report, the Princeton Review, and Times. What's new at other elite universities is tradition at Rice.
[/quote]
There's no more specific info up on the Rice website yet, so it is not really clear... but it does say that they will increase both need-based and merit financial aid. Yeah!!!!</p>
<p>Not knocking Rice at all, but it is interesting to contrast their strategy of tuition discounting for all students, coupled with merit aid, to Harvard's new policy/strategy. Rice's allocation of resources clearly tilts more toward the upper end of socio-economic spectrum (the millionaire's kid gets the same automatic $10,000 tuition discount as the working-class kid, plus a shot at merit money); Harvard's toward the middle and bottom. Rice's strategy is smart--it guarantees a pool deep in highly qualified, high-income students, exactly the pool that they need to attract to compete with the Ivies.</p>
<p>I am wondering how all of this will sort out on the athletic side. Remembering that the Ivy League is, at its core, an athletic conference, how will the other members who compete for recruited athletes respond. I am guessing that there will be some rancor. If this is as big as it sounds, it should put Harvard at a distinct advantage. Remember the others can't respond by offering athletic scholarships. I am guessing that there will be a push to provide a common aid package for recruited athletes across the league.</p>
<p>Marathon,</p>
<p>I agree with your observations about the effect of Rice's policy on who applies and attends. However, I doubt Rice is attempting to "compete with the Ivies" for students. Perhaps for professors and academic reputation. The Ivies have tradition and a role in American imagination and society that is difficult to compete with. Plus, for many of the students interested in the Ivies, Texas does not exist. Rice may be following a strategy to get the strongest academic student body it can, but in doing so, it may be competing more with U Texas, which has a terrific honors program, Duke, and other warmer weather or more southern universities.</p>