<p>hawkette, </p>
<p>U Chicago has a retention rate that high? I thought its retention rate was a bit lower than peers because some folks have a hard time adjusting to its quirky culture and tough grading. Maybe not?</p>
<p>Freshman retention at Notre Dame is 98%. At Vandy, it is approaching 96%. It would seem that these top schools are all wonderful & supportive. Or perhaps the kids enrolling have done a really good job researching where they'd be a good fit.</p>
<p>Hi newmassdad...
I've studied and worked at the University of Chicago for the last 15 years. IMO retention and completion rates are strongly related to the strength of students. I worked as a TA in the mid 1990s and work with work-study undergraduates now. The students at the University are much smarter now. It becomes obvious in conversation very quickly.
The 1997 USN&WR SAT range was 1270-1470 vs. 1320-1530 now. I know it doesn't seem like much, but it shows. The freshman retention rate has gone from 91% to 97%.
A second factor is that the size of the College has increased, partly to make the school feel like a friendlier place for undergraduates. The male-female ratio has become balanced as well.
The acceptance rate in the 1997 USN&WR was 71%. I'm sure they were enrolling people who were just not up to the work.</p>
<p>anxiousmom, I think that going to Rice instead of Harvard is perfectly fine if you have sufficient justification for it (fin.aid, distance from home etc.), but to say that you're afraid of reverse discrimination is a bit over the top. </p>
<p>Working at somewhere like Kinkos is fine, but do you really think that a graduate from any top school has (including Rice) dream job whose highlight of the day will be beeping tickets at a cash register? Being "overqualified" does happen in many fields, but if you're a grad from a top-caliber school then you will have no problem finding jobs more rewarding than working in Kinkos, with respect to both salary and level of intellectual stimulation. Most Ivy grads will have secured jobs before they even graduate, and if not they have huge support from the university to find one later. You're probably like any other overprotective parent (my mom included), but you need to make sure that you substantiate your fears with legit evidence before making such conclusions. </p>
<p>(BTW even if you graduate from Rice, its pretty likely you'll be told that you're overqualified to work as a cashier.)</p>
<p>Check out Penn:</a> University of Pennsylvania ... Penn just announced that it would do away with loan financing.</p>
<p>I would be surprised if Dartmouth and Columbia, at least, don't match this.
So much for the theory that the non-HYP Ivies will give up and go the standard merit route.</p>
<p>Penn just announced a new no loan program, no loans for family income under 100,000 starting next year, and no loans for anyone by 2009.</p>
<p>None of this surprises me. </p>
<p>We must remember that less wealthy schools like Penn (or Brown) have easy ways to meet this competitive threat and get lots of favorable PR without having to spend much: </p>
<ul>
<li><p>since the "benefit" is not well defined, (heck, we still don't know exactly what Harvard plans to do!), they can announce something equally generous, let the applications come in, and then use a less generous formula </p></li>
<li><p>or change their admissions standards such that they won't need to spend too much under the new approach. Can't do this and still be need blind? Not so. It is well known in admissions circles how one can shift the economic mix of one's students by tweaking admissions approaches. Want more full pay? Just give more weight to overseas experience and less to part time jobs, to use an example.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Heck, in thinking, this is much ado about little - not "nothing" because a few could actually save! (but then there are those that lose by not getting the opportunity to borrow...)</p>
<p>Yale follows suit:</p>
<p>The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Yale Announces Similar Aid Plan</p>
<p>This is an excerpt from the financial aid letter for those accepted to Yale '12
[quote]
Also, as you may have read in recent media accounts, Yale will announce a
substantial new financial aid initiative in mid-January. We are excited
about how this initiative will lower the cost of a Yale education even
further, and we look forward to sending you the initial determination of
your financial aid award as soon as the new program is announced.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>and according to an article I read, but can't get a hold of right now, Harvard beat Yale to the punch, in that they were already planning the new finaid package, and that it is just a matter of timing, rather than Yale copying Harvard, as the Crimson in a lovely propaganda-like manner states.</p>
<p>But don't you think that the Harvard plan had been in the works for quite a while? Wouldn't Yale know about it?</p>
<p>I highly doubt that the two universities have been talking about their financial plans to each other..just as the public didn't know, similarly Yale didn't know..and Harvard didn't know about Yale preparing for it as well...so this shows that the two universities don't share policies..</p>
<p>but then again, who knows?</p>
<p>No, they don't share policies. But they are very aware of what the others are planning. Not the details, but the major outlines.</p>
<p>Who knows? All I know is that Yale was startled by Harvard announcing the plan. I'll see if I can get a hold of the article.</p>
<p>I am a little skeptical of the "no loan" policy -- although willing to be converted with different information.</p>
<p>I assume it means that when the college gives a student its financial aid package, that no part of that is loans. However, as we all know, what a college thinks your EFC is and what you think it is can be vastly different. I would imagine that many families make up that difference through loans, including Staffords taken out by students. Wouldn't the result be that students at these "no-loan" school still end up taking out loans?</p>
<p>I am very hopeful that Yale will follow suit (any chance of filing for refunds). However, I have trouble with all the speculation that this is a ploy to attract applicants from other Ivies or high profile institutions seeing that it came so quickly on the heels of announcements that the Senate is considering imposing some form of the 5% rule on institutional endowments in the same manner as other private foundations.</p>
<p>sly_vt: Harvard currently has a self help part of its package that can be met with Stafford or Perkins loans. As far as I can see, this self-help will now be met with additional grants rather than loans as in the past. However, PLUS loans will still be available to meet the balance of the EFC. That part of the EFC was not previously met with Stafford or Perkins loans (again, as far as I know.) It is student loans that are being eliminated, not parent loans.</p>
<p>The 10% figure is not carved in stone. It is not simply income or adjusted gross income for people in the middle class bracket that they've designated. Rather, Harvard will use its own formula and look at assets as they have done in the past. Home equity will no longer be a factor when figuring aid.</p>
<p>twinmom: My point is that many families look at the package and think it doesn't come close to meeting their need. </p>
<p>For example: A family believes it can afford $10,000 a year and College X says they can afford $20,000. If College X costs $50,000, then perhaps none of the $30,000 financial aid package comes as loan. But what about the $10,000 difference between the EFC and what the family can pay? Yes the family can take out a PLUS loan -- or the student can take out a loan.</p>
<p>sly_vt: I do understand what you are saying and don't disagree.</p>
<p>However, students can only take out student loans (Stafford, Perkins) if they are approved for them in their financial aid packages. I hope this clarifies ... Harvard is eliminating the student loans that they previously offered and replacing them with grants. </p>
<p>Yes, if the student (and/or family) still can't manage to meet the EFC, there is a problem. But they minimally have up to about $3850 in additional grants that they didn't have before (the part of the package which was previously packaged as student loans.) </p>
<p>The EFC will go down for many families as a result of home equity no longer being considered. Also, it will depend on assets and where the family's income is going (i.e. retirement funds, etc.) As I said before, Harvard is still using its own formula.</p>
<p>I'll be interested to see what Yale's new policy looks like. And I do hope that other schools (including my son's LAC!) follow suit.</p>
<p>About 2 days after I read the article about Harvard I got an e-mail from Pomona about their new expanded financial aid... but that could just be because Pomona is rolling in dough</p>