<p>afan,</p>
<p>HYP may have special status but outside of the Northeast the rest of the Ivy League really does have to compete with the likes of Rice. In addition, there are many places in the country where a degree from HYP actually carries a distinct disadvantage in employment. I know this is hard for folks from the northeast to fathom but trust me it's true.</p>
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...there are many places in the country where a degree from HYP actually carries a distinct disadvantage in employment. I know this is hard for folks from the northeast to fathom but trust me it's true.
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I don't doubt that at all.</p>
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In addition, there are many places in the country where a degree from HYP actually carries a distinct disadvantage in employment.
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</p>
<p>Which areas of the country, and what is the nature of the disadvantage?</p>
<p>Most notably the South and Southwest, where HYP folks are thought of as unduly arrogant. Look, I'm not saying that I feel this way, so don't argue with me. But I have lived all over the country and some people feel this way.</p>
<p>Curious is correct. While I do not feel this way, I've known many people who do. Especially in areas where not many Ivy grads are found. If you only have met three or four, and they are all pompous & arrogant, you might assume that's part of the Ivy pedigree & be turned off to future Ivy grads. There is also a common perception about rampant grade inflation at Ivy schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In addition, there are many places in the country where a degree from HYP actually carries a distinct disadvantage in employment.
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</p>
<p>
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Most notably the South and Southwest, where HYP folks are thought of as unduly arrogant. Look, I'm not saying that I feel this way, so don't argue with me. But I have lived all over the country and some people feel this way.
[/quote]
<br>
Wow! Is there a way to empirically measure this? Or are you using anecdotal data? BTW, anecdotally, I, too, have lived in different parts of the US, including one of the regions that you mention, and I have not found what you indicated to be true. I have found that a HYP graduate has a significant advantage in employment, especially in academic and business settings.
In any case, to answer the OP's post, I believe that the other Ivies will follow, especially P and Y.</p>
<p>MSM DAD,</p>
<p>As you might guess this is a hard thing to prove. My data is personal and anecdotal and I expect yours is too. I wouldn't let it stop me from recommending Harvard to anyone but I think it's true. And I think the bias is much more pronounced in business than in academia.</p>
<p>MSMDAD, in a nation of over 300million people, I can't understand how anyone would assume the HYP advantage would be a universal outcome.</p>
<p>StickerShock, I did not say anything about a universal outcome. I was simply responding anecdotally.</p>
<p>afan -- I strongly disagree with your statement. Not only does Rice compete head to head with the Ivies for professors, it absolutely does for students as well. I know of a number of examples of current Rice students who turned down Ivies to attend Rice (my son included). The award of merit money was one factor in the decision -- but the residential college system, strong undergraduate focus, abundant research opportunities, and collegial, welcoming, diverse, inclusive, laid-back yet intellectual atmosphere also were strong factors. I also know a number of Rice students that transferred to Rice from Ivy league schools after being disenchanted with the environment.</p>
<p>Ok, MSMDAD. But why the Wow! reaction, then? Some employers revere Ivy grads, and some would take a pass. Even if my anecdotal experience differed from that of Curious, I would not be at all surprised.</p>
<p>I definitely think other selective schools will have to react to Harvard, as H has essentially redefined the middle class to include low six figure families. I certainly am crossing my fingers about this, as 10% of our income slated toward COA is perfectly reasonable for us. $50grand is not.</p>
<p>For some possible perspective on what kinds of numbers and what kinds of peer colleges we are talking about here: </p>
<p>Rice is planning to increase student body to 3800 over the next ten years, with the growth being in non-Texas students, including increases in international students. Although well-known in Texas, they are less well-known in the non-academic world in the North East, etc, and are planning to increase their exposure there and abroad. Not competing with the Ivies, per se, but growing in recognition and size.<br>
Re: Ivy league schools and reverse discrimination... personally, I was glad my daughter did not want to apply to any Ivy League schools. I was worried that it would limit her options after graduation if she wanted to get a fairly unskilled or lower-paying position, or something in a more counter-culture area. Others might think, "What is wrong with this kid? She has a degree from Harvard, but is applying to work at Kinkos. She must have some serious issues or surely she would be working for a company like XXX. " Or "We shouldn't hire this Harvard kid. She'll never stay in a lowly position like this. She'll move on in a few months, and then we'll be stuck trying to find a new employee..."
I felt like a Rice diploma, (which, BTW, used to be tuition-free, and a "poor man's" elite school), would not bring with it any negative expectations in that respect. Around Texas, if you went to Rice, people figure you are smart, laid-back, maybe a bit nerdy or eccentric, but that you know your stuff. Probably this sounds silly, and I KNOW that it is a unreasonable - but I was worried about reverse discrimination.</p>
<p>Stickershock, I am not sure what point you are trying to make?<br>
In any case, do you know (or anyone else) if this new financial aid initiative is going to be based on a family's Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) or gross income? I see a BIG difference between a family that has an AGI of $180,000 and another who grosses $180,000.</p>
<p>"Most notably the South and Southwest, where HYP folks are thought of as unduly arrogant. Look, I'm not saying that I feel this way, so don't argue with me. But I have lived all over the country and some people feel this way."</p>
<p>Yes, I have lived in the South, and the above definitely is true. Even in cities, graduates of second tier flagship state U were preferred over Harvard grads like me. The South was a very insiders place, and people preferred to hire folks who had been in the band or a frat in a state public than people who came from Ivies.</p>
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In any case, do you know (or anyone else) if this new financial aid initiative is going to be based on a family's Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) or gross income?
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</p>
<p>Is there any doubt on this point? To get an idea of how the income figure is reached, take a look at </p>
<p>Princeton</a> University | Princeton Financial Aid Estimator </p>
<p>and see which exclusions from income are taken into account by that methodology, which I suspect is very similar to Harvard's.</p>
<p>After HYPS, IMO Rice might be the next best undergraduate school in the country. I suspect that some of the folks who disdain it because of its Houston, Texas location don’t know the school or any graduates and likely have never been to Texas or Houston. That is too bad because Rice is one terrific and unique place and, if it were physically located in the Boston-Philadelphia corridor, I would bet heavily that it would be consistently ranked in the top 10 and maybe top 5. I can’t encourage strongly enough those top students willing to look beyond the traditional, historical powers to consider Rice for their undergraduate years. It is a gem. </p>
<p>As for the discussion about how colleges are viewed from region to region, it is my impression that there is a great deal of parochialism everywhere. People in their home regions almost always favor the top schools in their regions and only a few colleges can transcend that-HYPSM and possibly Duke. In the business world outside of the Northeast, the non-HYP Ivies have nowhere near the same name recognition and power. That is not to say that those colleges are not respected (they are), but the student coming from the top local private (or public) is going to be considered their equal and maybe even their superior in the job markets. Conversely, the Ivies benefit around Wall Street because they are physically closer to NYC than other elite universities around the country and have a strong history and network there. But the fact is that there is great student talent all around the country and employers know this and don’t feel they have to go the Ivy League to find it. </p>
<p>Re the question of whether other colleges (eg, the other top 20-40 colleges that will have the most cross applications with HYP) will follow Harvard’s lead, the financial positions of those other schools are not nearly as strong and this is obviously going to influence their ability to respond. HYP were going to win the yield battle anyway and so their relative status should not change much, but the ability (and institutional willingness) of the next group of schools to respond could do a lot to change their undergraduate competitive position and their reputation among high quality college matriculates. </p>
<p>It’s nice that cost is now more prominently on the table, but not all colleges are equally prepared to work this to their advantage. Some notable colleges that might have some difficulty responding include virtually all of the top publics due partially to declining state funding (U Virginia is best positioned) and some top privates (Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, USC, Tufts). Using the most recently available NACUBO data, all of these have per capita endowments of $150k and below and many have large graduate student programs that are very expensive to operate. It will be interesting to see how/if these colleges will use their endowment dollars to support their undergraduate programs and how this may affect their status vis-</p>
<p>My D has an appllication into Rice. We are very aware that is a superb school. With the right merit offer, she would be qute tempted in that direction.</p>
<p>That's strange, but possible. My kids love it, and their friends seem to love it, and the graduation and retention rate is very high (college-board website says there is a 97% retention rate from freshman to sophomore year). Some things that may be a positive for some kids, may be a negative for others. I personally know many kids who go, or have gone to U.T. Austin. Most of them consider it okay, but don't have much contact with their profs, and definitely don't love it. Part of this is due to the commuter school aspect - much of the student housing is far away, and students take long commutes to campus on the shuttles.</p>
<p>Re students at Rice, the Freshman Retention rate is 97% and this means that approximately 20-25 students per year do not return for their sophomore year. For the USNWR ranks, the 97% retention ties for 2nd highest score with colleges like Duke, U Chicago, Brown and Northwestern. The only Top 15 school with a lower level of retention is Johns Hopkins (which has a still high 96%).</p>