Contrast to Williams

<p>My main draw to Williams is that it is an intentional community. The people who go to Williams are there because they WANT to be there with the people who are also attending the school and they do not really need stimulation away from Williams life. From what I hear, Williams students are good at keeping themselves busy thanks to their very active, and very well funded, All Campus Entertainment club. They also have work, of course... but I think I'd be distracted by the unbelievable beauty of the surroundings!!</p>

<p>Amherst seemed a little small to me. Now, i know the size difference isnt that great, but i wonder if Amherst kids really leave campus a lot because there just isn't tons of room--that would be a turn off...</p>

<p>SaveHockey, I'm the parent of a very happy Williams sophomore. Although I have nothing negative to say about Amherst I have a mountain of positives about Williams. I feel a little disgenuous posting a Williams fan letter on the Amherst board. Why don't you ask the same question over on the Williams side?</p>

<p>As someone who chose Williams over Amherst some time ago (and honestly, many people come down to those two and it's really 50-50 at that point), I'll give my perspective. First of all, I actually loved Williamstown. Yes, it's a small town, but due to the college and the Berkshire culture scene, it's a very unusual small town. There are two art museums, one world class, in town, and ten minutes away in North Adams is MassMoca, the largest contemporary art museum in the world, which has tons of great events throughout the year. Also in town is Images, a great independent movie theater, two cozy bars, a ton of good restaurants (two delis, Thai, Indian, Latin, Chinese, Burgers, American, pizza), a day spa (on Water Street, the other main commercial street), the best college golf course in the country, and of course tons of hiking, skiing, and other outdoors activities. So it's not like a rural wasteland, it's actually pretty sophisticated, which is why tons of New Yorkers flock there every summer. It is certainly a small town, but I for one never grew sick of it, and I felt like Amherst was sometimes overwhelmed by UMass kids, while Williamstown was a community centered around Williams, which could be bad but I really enjoyed. </p>

<p>Really, no two schools are more similar. I felt Williams students were, in the end, a little more outgoing, quirky, outdoorsy, and fun, while Amherst was more preppy and serious on the whole, but that was just my impression, and it's dangerous to generalize. I am sure someone who chose Amherst would say that Williams is full of dumb jocks, which believe me is equally false (in fact, if you consider that most of the highly-recruited jocks are on the same teams at both schools -- football, hockey, basketball, lacrosse, and those teams are the same size, Amherst actually has a HIGHER percentage of recruited athletes than Williams). But I just loved all the goofy traditions at Williams like end of semester trivia, mountain day, winter carnival and the craziness of Winter Study (a big plus in my book), and I felt that plus the relative isolation did breed a character, uniqueness, and sense of community among the student body that was second to none. I also thought that Amherst was just a little TOO small -- Williams has around 20-25 percent more students, which I think is just enough to keep meeting new people on campus and keep things fresh. Also allows the school to bring in a few more big name speakers and performance artists each year, due to economies of scale. If you look at the list of speakers on campus this fall, it was staggering. But again, there is no "magic" number, Williams' size just felt right to me.</p>

<p>Now, for someone who really gets stir crazy or cabin fever, this could all be a downside. Amherst does provide more opportunities to take classes at the five colleges, escape the bubble, etc. There is certainly more happening, overall, in the five college area than in the Berkshires (not during the summer, but few folks are on campus for the summer). I just didn't see that as a huge advantage since, honestly, (1) overall Williams and Amherst provide I think the best undergrad education (along with Swarthmore and Pomona and Dartmouth) in the country, why pay all that money just to take classes at other schools and (2) I predicted (correctly) that I would never tire of the opportunities and intimate community provided by Williams. </p>

<p>Really, 90 percent of people who love Williams would love Amherst, and vice versa, and 90 percent who hate one would hate the other. You'd be hard pressed to tell a group of 10 Williams students from 10 Amherst students -- hell, they're all wearing purple in any event. So I'd recommend, if at all possible, stay for weekends at both schools, or a night each (they are only 1.5 hours or so apart) and go with your gut, wherever vibe you feel in a comfort zone. Unless, that is, you have a definite, definite interest in an academic area that is clearly featured at one over the other (such as Math or Art History at Williams). Trust me, there is no wrong choice. </p>

<p>There was a thread a month ago (that I posted on) best things about Williams on the Williams site. I think that gives a nice overview of what alums and students really love about Williams. If it hasn't been done, someone should start a similar thread on Amherst. It really gives some perspective into the little, memorable things that can make all the difference.</p>

<p>Thank you for your thoughts, Ephman. I will have to look for that thread, but Williams does seem pretty wonderful when you put it that way.</p>

<p>A new question: Which school does a better job of "preparing" their students? I know that that is really dependent on a student's field of study, but at the moment, I reallly don't know what I want to do with my life. I have so many interests, and yet nothing really "pops" at me. Are the schools comparative in the students they send off to top grad schools?</p>

<p>amherst was ranked in the top 10 in a recent ranking put out concerning putting students in grad school...above williams if i remember correctly. but both do an excellent job.</p>

<p>for all intents and purposes, amherst is better, of course haha</p>

<p>uhmmm goalie I think you are referring to a feeder school ranking done by Wall Street Journal. Williams ranked higher then Amherst did ;P </p>

<p>Rankings:</p>

<p>Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
WILLIAMS
Duke
Dartmouth
MIT
AMHERST
Swarthmore</p>

<p>Here's the link if you don't believe me...</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>for all intents and purposes, Williams is better, of course haha</p>

<p>
[quote]
Which school does a better job of "preparing" their students?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's like asking, "which handles better, a silver Mercedes or a blue Mercedes?"</p>

<p>Unless you are talking about some specific specialty of one college or another, all of the top LACs are going to prepare you equally well for anything you might want to do after college. The variation from student to student will be vastly larger than the variation between the schools. It's really a non-issue (unless you are talking a specific, non-mainstream, department). Same professors, same classes, same students. Same engines, same transmissions, same suspensions. Different paint jobs.</p>

<p>BTW, that oft-quoted Wall Street Journal article is basically useless. It only looks at five med schools, five law schools, and five business schools. The majority of Williams and Amherst grads don't go to med school, law school, or biz school and those that do are smart enough to know that there are a heck of a lot more than five good ones of each in the country. It's like looking at who bought more silver Mercedes last year, while totally disregarding the sale of blue Mercedes. Plus, when looking at LAC numbers, you have to look at a fairly long period of time. The raw numbers are so small (like, I dunno, maybe 20 Amherst grads went to med school last year) that the change of just one kid in one year could radically change the numbers. Lets say that one year six Amherst grads to one of those five selected med schools. The following year, two go. Does that mean that Amherst changed overnight from filet mignon into Alpo? No. It's too small a sample over too short a timeframe with insufficient data points.</p>

<p>Ooh <em>smack</em> ;). Let's see: a fight between a goalie and a cookie monster (Asian!:) ): I wonder who would win?</p>

<p>Depends on the kind of goalie, of course. Until then, I'm betting on the cookie monster.</p>

<p>Seriously, however, I was surprised by those rankings. I hadn't realized how prestigious Williams was.</p>

<p>i don't remember seeing it in the wall street journal, it was in a boston paper i read a while back, don't remember the name...</p>

<p>i'm not one for fighting (though judging by your picture, it wouldn't be much of one, anyway), but i find it a bit sad that certain cookie monsters feel the need to become members of amherst message boards (msn) and post on amherst threads...don't you have better things to do with your time? enjoy williams and keep it to yourself.</p>

<p>hahahaha I was just teasing-- I didn't mean to offend you goalie. </p>

<p>I agree with interesteddad that WSJ's ranking isn't the end all of rankings. It is flawed with their limited time scope and limited accessments of grad schools. Perhaps if WSJ tracked the "feeder schools" for several years and took that into account along with perhaps the "top" 20, 30, or even 50 grad schools in law, doctors, and phd programs then the ranking would have more credibility.</p>

<p>However I included the WSJ rankings in my last post to counter balance your ranking which pushed amherst past williams....haha because as you know as well as I know Williams is supperior. Who's ranked #1 in USNews? hahaha just kidding....</p>

<p>Both are really great schools and despite what discrepencies we try to distinguish between them they really are very similar. They both offer comparable programs, similiar enviroments (although amherst is closer to civilization it's in no ways an LA or NY etc.), and similar student body quality. You can't go wrong with either college. </p>

<p>once again sorry goalie if you took my previous post int he wrong way =/</p>

<p>Just the other night I wrote about the positives of Amherst over Williams... and then last night started leaning the other way... I think I've found myself in the famous decison between the two best liberal arts schools in the nation... hehe.. i can't complain... i'm so happy to be in this situation in the first place that I'm still walking on air... basically, either one is amazing... i've been thinking though... and i think i'm leaning towards williams... it's wonderful... again...i also encourage everyone to visit both schools. They're both wonderful... but one of them will be like coming home.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps if WSJ tracked the "feeder schools" for several years and took that into account along with perhaps the "top" 20, 30, or even 50 grad schools in law, doctors, and phd programs then the ranking would have more credibility.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, the one-year snapshot that the WSJ used is really insufficient statistically.</p>

<p>There is superb data available for doctorate degrees because the National Science Foundation has tracked what undergrad school every PhD, Divinity, and Music Doctorate grad went to for the last 50+ years. They have the data broken down by field or department. So you can easily see how many each of 500 schools produced, either overall or in a specific field. Divide by the number of undergrads at each school and you can get an absolute ranking comparison of schools even of wildly different sizes by looking at PhDs per 1000 undergrads. But, this data does NOT include MD, Law, or MBA degrees.</p>

<p>Also, you don't really want to limit the grad schools to just the "top" (whatever that means) because, going to college as a freshman, you don't know whether you will be the best premed student or midpack or near the bottom. As a rough rule of thumb, the top premeds at Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore get into the top Ivy League schools. For example, the Swat premeds who got into Ivy League med schools last year had average GPAs of 3.7. But, even the bottom of the premeds at these schools get into good, solid state medical schools, which is not a bad thing at all. If you could be guaranteed a slot in your home state med school right now, (Penn State, UVa, UMich, Georgia, etc.), I bet you'd think about it.</p>

<p>Also, each of the top LACs has slightly different proportions. For example, 89% of Swat grads continue their education within 5 years. Of that group:</p>

<p>64% in graduate programs in arts and sciences (i.e. Masters/PhD)
20% med school
15% law school
8% MBA
5% Education
4% Engineering,
2% Divinity</p>

<p>Amherst's numbers were:</p>

<p>70% within 5 years and of that group:</p>

<p>31% graduate programs in arts and sciences
15% med school
28% law school
15% MBA
10% Education
1% Engineering,
1% Dental
1% Veterninary</p>

<p>Williams didn't provide its numbers to USNEWS. But, I think they probably fall in between Swarthmore and Amherst in PhD stuff and probably shifted more towards medical that Amherst, both because Williams tends to have a lot of science majors.</p>

<p>All of this is probably a reflection of the students as much, if not more, than the departments. Amherst (tons of History majors) has always been big on Wall Street type jobs, so a lot of corporate Law/MBA. </p>

<p>Williams, too...but it's got a big pre-med program. </p>

<p>Swat is really big in political science and econ, but with a lot of grads going from there into public policy/government/think tank/college professor/research type stuff so more PhDs than Law/MBA. They also have the Engineering department and intense science departments, so a good bit of pre-med and Science/Engineering graduate study. For example, the President of CalTech was a Swat Chemistry major, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on RNA/DNA in virus cells during his 30 years at MIT. The woman in charge of astronomy at NASA who led the development of the Hubble telescope was a Swat Physics/Astro major from the 1950s.</p>

<p>Like I say: do you like your Mercedes in silver or blue? All of the top LACs prepare as well as you can be prepared. Pick the one that feels right and the academics and grad schools and jobs will take care of themselves.</p>

<p>Correction. Those Swat percentages add up to over a hundred. I believe that US NEWS transposed the digits on the 64% in arts and sciences grad schools. Should be 46%, which would make everything add up to exactly 100%.</p>