Cornell vs. Harvey Mudd

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I am a senior coming from a religious school in the Bay Area, CA. It's pretty big for a private high school, about 400 in my graduating class. I have broad interest in the MSET fields; my strongest subject of those is mathematics, but my interests tend more towards the practical than the theoretical, so math will probably end up a strong subordinate to whatever I choose as a career. As such, I'm planning on majoring in math as an undergrad, with an eye towards exploring science and engineering fields for a potential career path and/or passion.</p>

<p>As the title indicates, I'm choosing between HMC and Cornell's College of Arts and Sciences. As far as academic strength goes, I could pick either one and be happy, so other factors come into play. I'm an amateur nerd at heart (meaning I know the lingo but can't beat the video games), and I feel like that fits well with what I know of Harvey Mudd's culture from my visit. Cornell's culture is more of an unknown to me, because I haven't visited. I have only been to a panel discussion of Cornell alumni, which left me with a reasonably good, but vague, impression. I do know that Cornell's a good deal larger than Harvey Mudd, and I'm wondering how the tradeoff between available options and personal attention plays out.</p>

<p>The last major deciding issue is, anticlimactically, the core requirements in humanities and social science. I greatly enjoy these areas of study, but although I can turn out writing of high quality (IMHO), I have a great deal of trouble with the writing process when it comes to these subjects. Harvey Mudd has a quite extensive distribution requirement, a full 12 courses over 8 semesters; Cornell, by contrast, has only 5.</p>

<p>So to sum up, I have 3 basic categories of uncertainty:
1. What is Cornell's culture like? (If possible to answer) How does it stack up against HMC?
2. Mudders: Do you ever feel stifled by the size of the school, a lack of available options, or the shenanigans involved in cross-college registration (e.g. the difficulty of studying a foreign language)? How difficult is the writing, and what sort of support structure is in place for people who have trouble with it? To what degree do you feel free to explore your academic options?
3. Cornell students/alums: Do you ever feel lost or anonymous due to the size of the school?</p>

2

<p>

Come to Mudd! Research/clinic is going to prepare you awesomely for a career :)</p>

<p>About taking classes at other schools: I rather think Claremont is the best-placed LAC consortium in the country for cross-registration. Wellesley to MIT is a 30-minute shuttle, Scripps to HMC is 5 minutes, if you walk.</p>

<p>About writing for HMC: I’m not a current student so I can’t vouch for the difficulty of HASS classes. However, regarding writing papers, there’s help available through the writing center. You can get free help from trained peer consultants :slight_smile:
[Writing</a> Center](<a href=“http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicresearch/academicresources/learningprograms1/writingcenter.html]Writing”>http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicresearch/academicresources/learningprograms1/writingcenter.html)</p>

3

<p>Not going to lobby… but go to Mudd</p>

4

<p>You definitely sound like you belong to Harvey Mudd.
Cornell CAS is seems broader, and you’ll probably get a more focused MSET education at Harvey Mudd. Also, since you’re not in Cornell College of Engineering, that’d make it harder (not impossible, i think) to really learn a lot about engineering, if that’s what you’d like to pursue in the future. </p>

<p>Harvey Mudd is definitely one of the best places for an MSET education, and you can’t go wrong with either HMC or Cornell. Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Thanks for all the prompt replies. So far it sounds like barring a deal- and back-breaking writing load, HMC is the best choice. Maybe if replies could zero in on that part of the curriculum? Do all the HASS classes require copious amounts of writing, or does it vary significantly by course selection (possibly including courses taken at one of the other Claremont Colleges)?</p>

<p>(Of course, if anyone wants to change my mind about Cornell, I’m perfectly happy to hear about that as well.)</p>

6

<p>IMO, since you did not visit Cornell, it would be unlikely that you, at this late date, could summon the confidence to choose it in any event.</p>

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<p>^Please do not presume regarding my confidence, or lack thereof. I posted this because I wanted to know more, not because I wanted everyone to tell me I should go to Harvey Mudd.</p>

8

<p>I think there would be more resources, course selection, and opportunity for involvement in research at Cornell.</p>

9

<p>Okay since nobody wants to argue the other side :P</p>

<p>Cornell’s name is renowned worldwide, and is much more famous than HMC’s, especially outside the United States. As a member of the Ivy League, among other distinctions, Cornell has been famous for a long time. Even among STEM employers, Harvey Mudd isn’t widely known. The HMC degree isn’t particularly advantageous outside of a select group of employers, and the low GPA will be a further hindrance when the employer doesn’t know HMC.</p>

<p>Cornell’s campus is beautiful, it’s located away from the city but that just means that the scenery is prettier. (according to my friends who went there for a conference) Being further away from home, and in a different part of the country altogether, will give you much richer experiences. Like snow! :D</p>

<p>Cornell is much bigger, which is double-edged. The advantage is the increased number of good students and also, Cornell attracts a lot of excellent international students while HMC doesn’t. For example, my Singaporean friends who weren’t accepted to MIT frequently chose Cornell for its strength in the sciences.</p>

<p>A large school also means an abundance of social scenes, which means you have a lot of liberty to look around and choose your friends. Not so much in HMC, where there are only 200 students in a class year–it can get insular fast.</p>

<p>Also check this link out: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/614377-whats-special-about-cornells-engineering-program.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/614377-whats-special-about-cornells-engineering-program.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I would opt for Cornell if you aren’t 100% sold on your major. But you sound like you will fit in at Mudd. You can’t make a bad decision. Its also about preference and weather haha.</p>

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<p>As a student from another Claremont college, I really don’t think that it’s generally that difficult to cross-register, especially for foreign language classes. I know I’ve had Mudders in my Italian classes.</p>

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<p>At Cornell, it would not be impossible that, after horizons have been broadened, one could decide that they would actually prefer to major in french literature. Or philosophy. Or economics. or sociology. Or human development. Etc., etc., the vistas are endless. And if that happens typically one would find just as much to look forward to, in terms of breadth and depth of course offerings, in these other areas as in math. And of course no switching colleges, for other areas of Arts & Sciences.</p>

<p>More sections of classes, and more courses, could lead to fewer scheduling conflicts, fewer compromises, and greater breadth and depth of what one might learn there. </p>

<p>More students means more room to maneuver, socially, if you don’t so much find a perfect match in a particular small circle you get put in with initially.</p>

<p>A minor point, perhaps, but Cornell has a large, active alumni association, I have lived in two cities in the midwest, and of course here in NYC area,in each there have been bountiful activities, lectures, etc, they put on. And of course I have encountered fellow alums in the workplace, which has not personally benefitted me for networking, etc, but it has helped some others. One hopefully is an alumnus a lot longer than one is a student.</p>

<p>If you want to get a job out of college, in a non-technical area, Cornell is well recruited I believe. A Cornell degree is a known commodity among non-technical field employers, as well as technical field employers, both national & West Coast.</p>

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<p>I am Math_Mage’s mom. One thing he did not clarify is that we have been told by HMC’s Academic Dean that the school is “at the extreme end” of having a heavy core curriculum that emphasizes humanities/social studies (HASS). My son’s challenges are not that he loves these subjects or that he can write well, but that he writes so slowly that he has consistently missed deadlines on long essays, mostly due to perfectionism, and probably some developmental issues re time management.</p>

<p>With something like 12 semesters of HASS classes, with distribution as well as depth requirements, students at HMC are required to take 3 classes of HASS each year. That is A LOT for engineering or math majors. This leaves little room for academic exploration. So for example if you want some exposure to, say material science, it would be pretty hard to build up sufficient prerequisites to take the upper division MS classes when you have so many HASS and your own major to worry about.</p>

<p>I am also worried that the HASS requirements, which are said to be writing-intensive, would prove to be a major drag on what is already a very intense curriculum.</p>

<p>As an aside, we also discovered that HMC so schedules their freshman classes that it is impossible for freshmen to take a language class at Scripps, where the language classes are offered. That means you will stop for an entire year with a language you spent 4 years building up to. This is a very long time to do without and will likely set you way back. (Note this problem is going away in 2010, since they plan to fix the schedule problem. However for kids starting in 2009 this will continue to be an issue.)</p>

<p>Can anyone comment on all of the above?</p>

14

<p>I gotta echo Monydad’s comment about the size of Cornell’s alum body, and the active nature of their Alumni Association. I have 3 siblings who are Cornell alums, and have been invited to quite a few of their alum functions as the “sister”. I have been very impressed by the quality, attendance, and frequency of the programs. This is an issue few high school kids appreciate but consider that your college friends are your network for life, and add to that the people you get to meet at these functions will likely be helpful to you in your career. Some of the considerations about state schools vs private schools definitely turn on the quality of the alumni network. For example I am a Berkeley Business School grad and must say the school only recently woke up to the fact that their MBAs RELY on their network. Berkeley has added little value to my network.</p>

15

<p>"Can anyone comment on all of the above? "</p>

<p>Cornell’s liberal arts college has distribution requirements, courses must be taken in various “buckets”. Within those buckets, given the large course selection there likely will be opportunities to minimize written work requirements; eg taking an intro economics class that is soley exam-based, rather than a different social science class that has papers. But it is a liberal arts college, expect that you will still have to write. Lattitude is probably not unlimited.</p>

<p>For one thing, I believe there are mandatory freshman seminars that emphasize written work. Perhaps after concluding those seminars, S will find that he has learned to be less slow at writing, and no longer wishes to avoid it. Which would be the best result, really. The nice thing about these seminars, for that purpose, is that everyone in the university has to take them, not just students heavily into writing.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, time management is a highly critical skill to master at cornell as well.</p>

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<p>But on the other hand:
"Cornell students/alums: Do you ever feel lost or anonymous due to the size of the school? "</p>

<p>Frankly, yes, in the first year one often fells that particularly. This is part of the classic big u vs. LAC tradeoff. At Cornell there will likely be a lot of fellow students, and bigger classes in many cases. There may be more you can learn there, but not every prof. will know who you are.</p>

<p>The flip side is, the last couple years when one might find the small school is now boring/ old hat, there are still new challenges at the bigger school.</p>

17

<p>picking up on something esle mizumama posted:
At cornell CAS one can take courses at cornell’s other colleges,of course, but have to meet prerequisites for such courses, and there are graduation requirements for # courses taken actually in CAS. Since engineering & CAS are different colleges at cornell, pathway towards taking that advanced level materials science course you mentioned may require some explicit attention. But if you do that, then yes, you could take it.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure about HMC’s distribution requirement being at the “extreme end” but MIT’s HASS requirement is 8 classes. </p>

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</p>

<p>I understand that the OP has issues with writing, but avoiding writing isn’t the best solution. These skills are essential, even pursuing a PhD involves lots of paper writing. I consider HMC’s environment to be conducive to hone these necessary skills. HMC’s classes are small and the professors are accessible during their office hours to guide the OP. There are also other help resources like the Writing Center.</p>

19

<p>

To a certain extent HMC faces this problem less than other LACs because of the consortium. In my opinion, the 5C’s is the most integrated consortium in the country. Compare the commute between Wellesley and MIT–30 minutes on the shuttle to the commute between HMC and Scripps… So, I don’t think this is a big disadvantage for HMC.</p>

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<p>"In my opinion, the 5C’s is the most integrated consortium in the country. "</p>

<p>Then you can duke it out with barnard & columbia. Unless claim is these are not “consortium”, rather “affiliates”. For which, the distinction is ambiguous. In any event, clearly this level of access to a larger community is very helpful, vs if it were absent.</p>

<p>couple other random thoughts:
-I think many students would be well served by looking into some kind of time management course, before they set foot on a college campus.

  • I’ve been hanging out on CC a while now, since D1 was looking at colleges, and I can’t recall anyone ever before saying they were considering Cornell because they thought it might be easier for them. Another first.
    -There are numerous other considerations. Travel time/ efort will be a non-trivial matter. and I personally would not make a decision to attend a college without visiting. Otherwise you could show up there and instantly realize that you hate it.</p>