Cornell vs. Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Please forgive my probably annoying, standard college comparison thread. Nevertheless...</p>

<p>Since my visit to Cornell 2 months ago, I have grown to want to go there more and more, due to the weather (I love the cold), the small-town atmosphere, and the fact that the actual campus is so large and beautiful. However, the most important aspect of Cornell for me was its stellar physics program, and I hope to graduate as a double-major with physics and mathematics; I then want to get into a great grad school for one of these subjects. Cornell is ranked extremely high in physics, and is very good in mathematics, but Princeton still beats it in both of these rankings. I haven't visited Princeton (I may sometime, but that's somewhat in doubt at the moment.)</p>

<p>Perhaps my greatest worry is that Cornell won't provide as much as a proving ground as Princeton would, in that its rankings aren't as high. However, there is something inside of me saying that the physics/mathematics training in any Ivy's undergrad program is essentially equivalent.</p>

<p>What I'm asking you is whether I should give up a great chance at Cornell (by using ED) to get a worse chance at a slightly better school. Also, I guess it would be good for anyone who knows how to respond to give me an accurate picture on how much of an advantage Princeton would actually offer for an undergrad.</p>

<p>Note: I am posting this on both the Princeton and Cornell forum subdivisions to prevent unfair bias in one direction or the other. I hope that doesn't qualify as spamming...</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that saying something like “the X at any Ivy League school should be…”</p>

<p>Cornell is worse than many schools outside the Ivy League. Not that Cornell is a bad school, but you’re definitely going to see a difference between Cornell’s programs and Princeton’s. Between HYPS? Eh, not a lot of difference.</p>

<p>I had a choice between a near-guarantee (as much as you could say that) into Columbia ED this year, as a legacy with a strong application. My uncle (Alum) thought I had little to no chance, but I passed on the Columbia ED to apply SCEA to Yale regardless, got in, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I was also accepted to Princeton and Columbia RD, so I got to visit all three, and Columbia ended up my least favorite.</p>

<p>The bottom line is, if you think you’re going to have a strong chance at an Ivy, don’t let fear dictate your application.</p>

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<p>mxm, it is common knowledge that Harvard/Princeton are far apart from all the other Ivies in Physics and Math, and could very well have the best combination of those two areas (along with MIT and Stanford) in the U.S.</p>

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<p>Cornell is one of the world’s great centers for physics and mathematics research as is Princeton of course. </p>

<p>Cornell has two Nobel prize winners in the physics department and one in Chemistry. William Thurston is a Fields medalist in mathematics.</p>

<p>Princeton has two Nobel prize winners in physics as well as one in Biology. Charles Fefferman and Andrei Okounkov are both Fields medalists in math.</p>

<p>As you can see, both universities are comparable and obviously, excellent. I am not affiliated with either.</p>

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<p>Aside from making any statement on its academics, Cornell is actually relatively easy to get into (people from my high school who have no business at schools of ivy caliber consistently get in). I would say just apply regular decision and choose then :).</p>

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<p>You haven’t gotten in either yet, so calm down. That said, Princeton is much, much better in math and science, especially physics.</p>

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<p>Jeepers, you people are so snotty it’s disgusting. Disgusting.</p>

<p>There is no predicate, none, zero, zip, nada, for snotty statements like “Princeton is much, much better in math and science, especially physics”. This stuff is coming from high school students, and maybe people who have spent 14 months in college, and they are talking out of a part of their body that can’t see what’s in front of them and is pretty far from their brains.</p>

<p>The differences in faculty quality and resources between Princeton and Cornell in math and physics are (a) minimal and (b) unlikely to affect the experience of any undergraduate. As an undergraduate you are extremely unlikely to get to the point where you could tell the difference, and no sophisticated person would expect a generic Princeton graduate in either field to know more or to be more sophisticated than a generic Cornell graduate. </p>

<p>Both are relatively small majors at their colleges, and about the same size (which is relatively much smaller at Cornell, with more than twice the number of undergraduates Princeton has): about 30 math majors/class and 15 physics majors. For comparison, look at the equivalent undergraduate majors at similarly ranked MIT (90/80), Harvard (80/40), or the University of Chicago (60/35). The point is not that Princeton or Cornell is “worse” than those schools, but it is that neither Princeton nor Cornell is necessarily where you would find the biggest concentration of energy around those subjects at the undergraduate level.</p>

<p>Princeton IS more selective, and probably has more impressive students overall, although Princeton (and Harvard, etc.) are SO selective that there are plenty of top-notch students left over for places like Cornell. Princeton also tends to award more and better need-based aid to students, and Princeton has more general prestige. Both institutions are rich, but Princeton is richer. As a result, students choosing between Cornell and Princeton are overwhelmingly likely to choose Princeton. </p>

<p>Princeton is not as monumental as Cornell, nor does it sit on top of a steep hill overlooking a beautiful lake. It is not shot through with rugged gorges. But it is fabulously beautiful. In my mind, Princeton and Cornell are 1-2 for physical beauty, with Princeton winning by a nose. If you need places of tranquility, and felt claustrophobic at Columbia, you shouldn’t worry about Princeton at all. But you should worry a little about Harvard, MIT, and Chicago.</p>

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<p>JHS: A larger department does not indicate “more energy in the subject at the undergraduate level”. Rather, a smaller department is often (I’m not saying always) better because it allows for a smaller student to faculty ratio, which is important in getting attention, research opportunities, etc from faculty. I don’t know about Cornell, but I know Princeton’s student-faculty ratio in the math/physics/astrophysics department is amazing. Also, because Princeton has a relatively small graduate student population, undergraduates really get to be part of these world class departments in a way that they might not at equal caliber schools. Princeton’s required senior thesis (and junior papers, at least in the physics department) also make the Princeton undergraduate experience (in my opinion) nearly unparalleled from an academic perspective, at least as far as math or physics goes. I am going to Princeton in the fall to study physics (or maybe math), so maybe I’m biased, but these are all reasons why I chose Princeton over Harvard (though the “fit” factor was probably more important in my decision).</p>

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<p>I understand that Princeton is better at mathematics, but I anticipate that mathematics at any institutions in the top 15 of that field won’t show much of a difference to an undergrad. With that said, Cornell is extremely close to Princeton in its physics prestige, and is actually higher in its engineering, so I think that half of that statement is at best a big exaggeration.</p>

<p>About reminding me that I haven’t yet gotten in to either… I know that. I’m just wondering if either of those would have any large academic differences for an undergrad, since I’m deciding whether or not to use Cornell ED, which <em>does</em> require settling this issue long before I get accepted anywhere.</p>

<p>I don’t want to go to Cornell just because it’s the easiest Ivy to get into, or because I just want an Ivy name stamped on my degree, but because I absolutely loved the atmosphere, and one of the only ways I wouldn’t apply there is if (1) I found a better choice for my long-term academic career, as in one that would make a great grad school much more likely than if I went to Cornell, or (2) I found the same quality of academics, yet with a better setting. That said, I’m not wanting to see you tout Princeton or disrespect Cornell, but to rather tell answer me the following question: In reality, does Princeton exceed Cornell noticeably for an undergrad in these subjects; and, in your opinion, does it have a better setting (social and environmental)?</p>

<p>Thanks, and I hope that none of my reply sounded rude… I sincerely didn’t mean it that way, just providing a rebuttal to show you more clearly what I’m asking.</p>

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<p>They’re both great places to go to school, and especially in the fields being discussed. But Princeton is and always has been the more exclusive of the two. Whether or not that makes it “better” is up to you. Spending time on both campuses establishes a real difference in the ‘vibe’. And for my part, I find *both *locations to be altogether cold enough in wintertime ;)</p>

<p>JHS, your personal insults are out of place and do not assist you in making your arguments.</p>

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<p>this has been answered many times above</p>

<p>further, if you want a feeling for how good Princeton’s Math department is, including for undergraduates, please review the Princeton v. MIT and Princeton v. MIT, Cambridge threads in the field of Math that have been recently completed</p>

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<p>physicshobo:</p>

<p>Based on the NCES numbers, which reflect degrees awarded in the 2008-2009 academic year, Princeton awarded 35 bachelor’s degrees and 18 PhDs in math, and 16 bachelor’s degrees and 30 PhDs in physics. Cornell awarded 29 bachelor’s degrees and 16 PhDs in math, and 15 bachelor’s degrees and 28 PhDs in physics. I think the departments are the same size, and that sure looks like the same ratio between undergraduate and grad students. You don’t get a fundamentally different experience at Cornell on that score.</p>

<p>As for number of majors, you are right that there are advantages to being one of a small number of undergraduate majors in a big, important department – something that applies to both Princeton and Cornell. I’m not trying to contradict that, but I was giving the numbers that back up what I notice in real life: the really hardcore math/physics nerds seem to congregate elsewhere in greater numbers, for whatever reason (which may include that Princeton doesn’t admit as many of them).</p>

<p>Princeton’s senior thesis requirement is cool, but lots of places have senior thesis requirements. I’m not looking up Cornell. That is a style point, not some vast quality gap.</p>

<p>The OP wasn’t asking whether Princeton was better, or more prestigious, or more selective than Cornell. He was saying that he loved Cornell, and asking what, specifically, he would be giving up if he applied ED there and thus lost the chance to be accepted at Princeton. The only correct answer, at the level of academics, in math and physics, is “not very much”. There are certainly lots of other bases of comparison between the two colleges, some of which may cut either way depending on the student (e.g., the OP likes Cornell’s isolation, which some people see as a negative, or the size difference), some of which probably favor Princeton (e.g., financial aid, which is extremely important, residential colleges, general prestige, less overt competition and inferiority complexes), and a few of which may even favor Cornell. (No one, but no one, looks good in orange and black if it’s not Halloween.)</p>

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<p>Marsden, I’m sorry, but I had a pretty negative reaction to the “much, much better” line.</p>

<p>I don’t like to use USNWR rankings, but they will work for this purpose.</p>

<p>In the math/science area, in the general graduate program rankings (which are purely reputational), on a scale of 5.0, math is the ONLY area where the two universities both have a program and the rating difference between them is more than 0.2. In math, Princeton wins 4.9-4.3. Cornell does better in chemistry and computer science, Princeton in biology (by 0.1), earth sciences, and physics. Out of 30 possible rating points in those fields, the net difference between them is 0.7 points. (If you take into account the seventh field ranked by USNWR, Statistics, where Princeton does not have any program, the difference would be about 3.0 in Cornell’s favor.)</p>

<p>I wouldn’t put too much weight on the accuracy of those ratings, but they do reflect some general perception of quality by people in the field who know what they are talking about. And they do NOT support the notion that there is “much, much” difference between the two universities’ departments in ANY of these fields, much less overall.</p>

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<p>No worries. I’ve just been reading your incredibly comprehensive and thoughtful notes in the Eating Clubs thread. And anyway, everyone gets set off now and then ;)</p>

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<p>You have not even visited Princeton and you are asking if you should even bother to apply.</p>

<p>First step is you should visit, if you can, your top three choices. You are too young to settle for second best. If you visit Princeton and another university and are convinced that Cornell is your first choice then apply ED at Cornell.</p>

<p>In applying to schools you should also consider the location of the university, transportation to and from the university, the academic and social environment, the size of the university, the type of students that attend, the research opportunities, and financial aid and research grants that are available.</p>

<p>To answer your specific questions: “does Princeton exceed Cornell noticeably for an undergrad in these subjects” It depends. If you interested in studying plasma physics, cosmology, or relativity then Princeton is unequaled. Top string theory experts are found at both Princeton University and the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. I am sure that Cornell has an area of unique expertise. You should compare Princeton’s requirement for independent research for research opportunities at Cornell.</p>

<p>“does it have a better setting (social and environmental” This is entirely personal. Some students want to attend a big frat school. Most Princeton students do not join frats or sororities. Some students want a party school. Princeton is not a party school.</p>

<p>When you consider the ranking of graduate department consider the structural bias against a smaller school like Princeton. For example, physics is reviewed in seven areas. Larger universities such as Berkeley, Stanford, The University of Arizona have many more faculty and are more likely to have an expert in each field. When the question is asked of faculty, where would you advise your best student to attend for a PhD Princeton ranks much higher. An undergraduate at Princeton has an excellent opportunity to work on a one and one basis with a world famous physicist or mathematician. </p>

<p>If you were a third generation Cornell hopeful and are satisfied with the academic environment I would say perhaps apply ED at Cornell. However, if you are still evaluating which university best meets your needs then you should apply to both regular decision. If you are admitted to Princeton then you have a good chance of also being admitted to Cornell and you can decide next year where to attend.</p>

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<p>The better question is whether “prestige” of the department matters for undergraduates. Having been through undergrad and knowing a thing or two about the PhD process, my gut is that frankly, it makes no difference how prestigious the university or department is (once you get into the top tier, which both Princeton and Cornell are) and lots of difference what you do there. Questions like, “can I do research? What is professor access like? Do I get to do independent work if I want to?” to me, are much much much more important than “is the program #1, #3, or #5.” If you work hard, do good work, and get to know faculty who will support you , you’ll get your pick (within reason) of graduate schools. </p>

<p>Spend the time deciding which school you’d like better. I’d try to move heaven and earth to visit Princeton–not because I think that it’s the right call, but because you should compare your top choices (as someone pointed out). Compare apples to apples, not apples to what other people tell you apples might be like. Then make the choice, and if you think that you’ll like Cornell better–enjoy your time there more, do better work there, fit in better there, then the choice is obvious. Really and truly obvious. Once you’re in the top ten, don’t let rankings make your decision for you. </p>

<p>There is one other thing to keep in mind. It’s entirely possible that you’re going to change your mind. Yes, yes, I know, you’re decided. But people do change their mind during college (most popular major early sophomore year? “I thought I knew, but now I’m unsure”) As such, make sure that the school you attend has a good backup plan, in case you decide that you don’t really like physics or math after all. Not saying that’s Princeton or Cornell (I’m really neutral here), but just make sure that you’re comfortable with what happens if happily ever after doesn’t materialize quite as quickly as you thought it might.</p>

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<p>JHS: I was NOT trying to say that Princeton is better than Cornell at math/physics. I was mostly responding to your comment (which I cited in my post) that “neither Princeton nor Cornell is necessarily where you would find the biggest concentration of energy around those subjects at the undergraduate level”. Much of what I said may apply to Cornell as well. I just referred specifically to Princeton because I have personal experience with the math/physics departments there. Students who make it through Princeton’s physics major (which is quite challenging) are among the most prized graduate students, from what I have heard from various professors at numerous schools, and the people I know who were physics majors at Princeton say it was among the most challenging and rewarding four years of their lives. I KNOW Princeton’s physics/math departments are excellent, and that was what I was trying to substantiate, NOT that these departments are significantly better than at Cornell. </p>

<p>Personally, I didn’t apply to Cornell because in my experience, my personality more that of a Princeton student than a Cornell student. I say this based on the students I know who attend both. In general, the people I know who are going to/already at Cornell are less focused than those I know who are going to/already at Princeton. This is a judgment based on the sample I have seen, and not an absolute truth in any way. And frankly, being around focused people is not the right thing for everyone. Also, Cornell is in general a bigger school. I prefer the cozy, quiet atmosphere of Princeton. For me, the quietness will help me achieve more academically, so from an academic perspective, Princeton is a better school than Cornell for me.</p>

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<p>physicshobo: Princeton is a great university. Math and physics at Princeton are famously great. You are incredibly lucky to have the chance to go there and study those things (but I’m sure you earned your luck). No one, not I certainly, is going to second-guess your decisions to go to Princeton if you have the chance. Given that you are going to Princeton, no one will ever ask you why you didn’t bother applying to Cornell. They might ask you why you didn’t apply to Harvard, MIT, or Chicago, say . . . but maybe you did. Anyway, a rational person could easily like Princeton best from among that lot for precisely the reasons you give.</p>

<p>I don’t know why Princeton has so many fewer math and physics majors than Chicago or Harvard. (MIT isn’t really a fair comparison.) It surprised me a lot when I saw that. Chicago and Princeton are the same size exactly. Chicago awarded 88 math bachelor’s degrees last year; Princeton 35. Chicago had 273 declared math majors last spring, including sophomores (who can but don’t have to declare majors). Princeton has 72 now, counting only juniors and seniors – so maybe that’s 100-110 if you count sophomores who would have declared already if they could. Harvard, which is bigger than either, has about 100 math/applied math majors/class, too. </p>

<p>Maybe the difference is Princeton’s ORFE major, I don’t know. That does seem different from straight math, though. And it doesn’t explain the similar difference in physics.</p>

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<p>For most areas of study, I would agree that the difference between any two schools in the top 20, isn’t that large. However, I think when you’re discussing something like math and physics (you could throw in comp sci as well), it actually makes a lot of sense to consider the differences.</p>

<p>Why do I say this? The first reason is because math and physics are very transparent, in the sense that it is very clear when you either understand something, or fail to understand. The second reason, possibly related to the first, and also likely because all students are exposed to math from an early age, is that math and physics are subjects where students will have HUGELY varied levels of preparation, ranging from the basic competency to prodigy level, and by prodigy, I mean truly precocious, think 7-year old debuting with the NY Philharmonic).</p>

<p>Why does this then affect the quality of the education? While it might be true that faculty strength isn’t the biggest factor in determining the quality of the program, what is the single biggest factor is going to be the quality of your peers, and at Princeton, particularly in the math and physics departments, you are going to see a large number of some very, very smart students.</p>

<p>The result of this is that schools like Princeton can not only offer some very challenging courses at all levels, but also make them REQUIREMENTS for the major. </p>

<p>For example, at Princeton, almost every math major (with the exception of those people who are able to skip the course) takes MAT 215, a real analysis course that covers the first 8 chapters of Baby Rudin, as their FIRST course. Something like this simply isn’t possible at other schools, even those in the top 20, because they don’t have the necessary raw resources, ie students, who are able to keep up with the material at that pace. </p>

<p>The takeaway from all this is that at the very top schools for math/physics, if you major in those subjects, you won’t be able to avoid learning a lot of math/physics. But at some of the lower ranked schools, while it’s without a doubt possible to learn a lot, it’s also possible to not learn so much if you don’t make it your responsibility to challenge yourself.</p>

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<p>Question: When you qualify for PSAT/NMSQT as one of the highest scoring students, which two colleges to select for reporting and how does that play in the long run. For scholarships etc etc</p>