Correlation between success in State and National Comp & Acceptances/Scholarships (VP)

With so much time on my hands I’ve been back reading a lot of threads here trying to get a game plan for this coming year.

I know as parents, we all think our kids are talented and wonderful. I want to give my daughter the best guidance and direction. She’s been relatively successful and has always done well in competitions, but we live in an area that doesn’t offer a huge amount of competition, especially in regards to Classical Voice.

How do you “know” (I know there is no “knowing”) or gauge your child’s relative talent or preparedness vs other kids? I don’t mean in a sense of “competing” or “comparing” to others but judging your own skill level.

If your child was doing well in state/national competitions did you see that translate into $$ offers / acceptances?

I know a lot of this is individual to each person, but after reading back over the last few weeks, I’m really, really impressed by the level of talent and the accomplishments of the kids here! (Voice and all instruments) There’s some really wonderful stories of generous offers and so many top notch schools on the audition list.

I’ve already talked to my daughter about picking safe schools, middle of the road and reach schools.

I think she’s just stressing a little bc the coming months was filled with events, conventions, competitions and camps where she was looking to really prepare for auditions and make some connections. A little self doubt creeping in?

I just want the experience to be wonderful for her, no matter the outcome. I know so many have recently gone through the process and I guess I’m wondering:

Was there any acceptance/denial that totally shocked you? Why?

Were your child’s successes in competitions a good gauge of how they fared during auditions/acceptances?

If this is too personal of a question, I apologize! It seems there’s a level of anonymity here, so I hope I didn’t overstep by asking.

I think that is a great and well thought question. It is, however, very hard to give it a good response, because it is SO relative. The best in one location won’t be the best in another, more classically driven, in most cases.
Coming from a “flyover” state ourselves, being at the head of the section/state/competition may or may not mean something; you really (at least we really) don’t know until you start auditioning for national/international opportunities (which is tricky, right now).
If my child was still in high-school, in the current climate, I’d say the best bet would be to research the top faculty at top schools, and especially the top faculty at great schools that are maybe not as cut-throat, and try to set-up some Zoom lessons. Tell them up front that you’re looking for honest feedback regarding where you stand and what you can do.
Good luck moving forward, and feel free to ask more!

Very much agree with @cellistamadre Regional competitions are highly variable and not a great read on the wider applicant pool. Sending PM.

I agree with above particularly for voice. Vocalists are young and its very subjective. However if you are continually getting some recognition…qualifying for and getting decent feedback with a good result on occasion, that’s postive news. But if you don’t do well in one or two or three…no big deal…it’s too subjective to “read” each result. Also schools may be looking more big picture while the competition judge may like a technical, choir singer with a less powerful voice. A school looking for opera singers (soloists) may give you more credit for the power in your voice and figure they can work through the technical issues (which may have hampered your competition score). In other words, a competition is NOT a college audition. Still it’s very good practice and good results certainly aren’t bad. Good results mean you are on the right path for “acceptance”.

Acceptance is based on talent. Kids who can sing the required repertoire well and get past several pre-screens to an audition have a good shot at a few or many acceptances.

Scholarships are a different issue. Once you enter the talent pool (everyone is talented here) then it becomes a mix of elements (imho) for the scholarship offers. Of course talent is a part of it…and for really high talent (more difficult for young vocalists imo) you can get some high rewards I would guess. BUT be aware that talent is only part of it…mixed in there is the philosophy of the school (do all get scholarships?), need (a harder nut to crack for young female vocalists), yield (are they short or heavy in your voice type from last year and how does this year look) AND ACADEMICS. I would bet some of the big pops in scholarships are due to strong academics with strong talent.

Targeting a few good music schools where your kid’s academics are on the high side (as opposed to the low side) is a good strategy for scholarships.

Final note: my D did very few competitions and no music camps. She was however on stage in a city from about 10. She did a Saturday music school the last 3 years of high school (MT and intro to Opera). Most summers she did a performance that was always musical theater. Between jr and sr year, I no longer remember what she did (her Sat school was only during the school year). So I would guess some community thingamabob. She came late to classical voice…but still got good acceptances. So if your D loves to sing and work in her room on her own (my D did a lot of just singing in her room by herself from a young age), she really should be just fine. (Edit: of course this assumes she has the basics like a good teacher for repertoire and technique which I think that you have mentioned. Being a vocalist can be a singular pursuit particularly in college. A lot of time working on your own.)

I agree with @cellistamadre and @songbirdmama (hi!) above. We ALL want to know this, right?!? All the parents of singers want to know if their kid is going to have a shot! I will add a few, pretty specific thoughts below.

  1. Singers develop late. SOMETIMES, HS singers that do “well” at competitions are singers with smaller, more put together instruments (this depends so much upon the competition goals and judges). These voices can sound GREAT at 16-18, but may not have the capacity to develop much more in terms of career potential.

  2. The big college programs are looking for CAREER POTENTIAL.

  3. There is a lot of “failure” built in to the system for Classical Vocal Students; we once heard the advice that if “one good thing happens every six times you audition, compete, or sing for someone, those are good odds”. So, the sooner your child can get used to the “failure” component, the better.

  4. Do try to get some real, solid, honest advice from several professionals regarding your singer’s potential.

  5. My daughter did “ok” in competitions in HS… won a couple (mostly MT, back then), was a finalist several times, but never was a winner in a “big” National competition (like Young Arts, etc.). She “lost” the requisite (5 in 6) number of times ;). She has a big instrument. “Classical” competitions seemed to prefer those put together voices back then. Several of the young local singers who regularly came out on top in competitions are now at local State undergrad programs. My kid got several big college admission offers with good merit, is studying now at Oberlin, and has had some lead roles/offers already in summer festivals. She also got a “no” from her prescreen at CMU. Winning early isn’t everything, but it sure is nice!

  6. My daughter had one “no” during the college audition process: a “no thank you” from CMU at the prescreen level. Otherwise, she was roundly accepted across the board . We did NOT expect this, and it was not reflective of how she did in competitions (but WAS reflective of the professional advice we had received relating to her career potential…so again, I think this is key). We are a highly needy family, financially, and this can seriously impact offers; it’s important to know that. And oddly, as a large voiced singer (I think) she received less “love” from smaller, less “professional training program” type schools.

  7. And all of the above is different for the young men. Lol.

I hope this is helpful! Don’t hesitate to ask if you have any questions!

Want to re-emphasize what @bridgenail said:
“Targeting a few good music schools where your kid’s academics are on the high side (as opposed to the low side) is a good strategy for scholarships.”
BAZINGA!

@dramasopranomom – would you mind PM’ing me? I’m still too new to initiate a conversation, but I have some questions about Oberlin. If you have time? Thank you!

@songbirdmama and @bridgenail , what a great tip regarding academics! I’ll just add that my D did is super nerdy smart, but did not have stellar academics, and tests badly (because of learning disabilities). She still did very well with merit aid, but we chose her programs very, very carefully. She likely could have cast a wider net if her academics had sparkled more ;). Be sure to lean on your kiddos’ strengths!

Agree @dramasopranomom: Know thy kid - musically AND academically!

We decided against a few schools that I doubted my D would have gotten much money at…oh if only my kid were super smart…instead of the old “above average” kind…lol. But, in the real world, she’s scrappy, fierce, and talented…so she’s still in the game.

Thank you for the time taken to respond. I am looking to compile a list and do some research on merit awards and programs.

Question: how do you KNOW who is a good professor at any given school? I know her voice teacher has knowledge of some, but how did you go about getting that info? Im.guessing I can browse the college pages but what will that actually tell me? What should I look for? Feel free to pm with suggestions as well.

In addition to her private teacher, D started her search at Classical Singer, watching master classes and meeting professors to see if any clicked. She also worked her contacts from summer programs, asking for recommendations of where she might study and “who was good”. She read bios of young artists and emerging artists to see with whom they studied as undergrads (eye opening and reassuring that there are many, many ways to approach this, not only top of the line big name schools). Once she had applied and was accepted, she hunted down students of the teacher on YouTube and tried to figure out whether she liked their sound (because certain studios have certain sounds). Hope that helps!

@songbirdmama great advice! Thanks!

I think high school competitions tend to reward a more finished product - for example lighter voices demonstrating a lot of coloratura. Some high schoolers and even college students are no where near being a finished product. My daughter won, placed and sometimes didn’t place in competitions as a high schooler. She also has a bigger instrument (hi @dramasopranomom!) so even at the end of her undergrad experience she is not preparing roles that she’s going to be performing as a pro. Her voice is still changing.

What’s important for college auditions this fall is to choose repertoire for the voice your student has now. Include a variety, but don’t overreach. Since your daughter has always done well in competitions - that’s great. Sounds like she’s getting wonderful advice as to what rep to bring into those competitions and is able to put together a polished performance.

As for scholarships this varies quite a lot, but supply and demand comes into play. See @dramasopranomom’s point 6) above.

Since you’ve already talked to your daughter about picking safe schools, middle of the road and reach schools, once these schools have been selected, start researching how these schools award merit scholarships and financial aid.

One tip as you check out schools - make a note of both undergrad and grad school tuition. Tuition might be significantly cheaper at the same school for grad school than for undergrad. This was true at BU and Eastman, not true at conservatories like NEC.

Enjoy the next year and I hope everything turns out really well!

If it helps at all, my D has never performed at any vocal competitions whatsoever. She started choir at an early age, which turned into solos, and then went to a school with a vocal conservatory program. It was really that program that gave her the polish she needed to be a presence on stage. She had 90 mins a day of singing in ensembles plus an additional 6 hrs of weekly conservatory study. This included a lot of solo and small ensemble work. I think she presented at mature and seasoned because of that.

She actually didn’t start voice lessons until she turned 16. Five months later she auditioned for Tanglewood and was accepted. The summer at Tanglewood was a wonderful growing experience, but probably more socially than vocally. She watched master classes and gauged her “competition” in other sopranos- but made such friends and connections. Through watching master classes, she learned what she was drawn to as a teaching style. There are a lot of these types of videos on YouTube for her to look up faculty.

What my D did do upon return from Tanglewood -and to prepare for prescreens and auditions -was go to twice weekly lessons. This made a huge difference in her voice in terms of richness, volume, longevity, and stamina. Her teacher is a Mezzo, and while my D is coloratura, she now has a lot of depth and a decent “weight” for her category. The conservatory program at her school prepared her through many solo recitals, lead operatic performances, and just plain old stage time. However, her audition experience is the first time she ever really had to “compete” with anyone else on a large scale. She had a very extensive repertoire list for an incoming freshman.

Academically, I demanded a lot from her and she knew what was expected. Her school is academically rigorous (extremely so) and that helped self motivate her so all the pressure wasn’t just from mom. Her grades, awards, and test scores undoubtedly got her into schools based on both talent and academics.

Focus in academics as much as you can because this year will be so different. Invest in a high quality recording and sound technician for your prescreens, and prepare to submit final auditions that way too since the virus may still shut down travel next year.

Have your D sing for the elderly to increase her experience. My D belonged to an Alzheimer’s music therapy club and did that quite a bit. Stage experience is the best thing however you can get it. I don’t think my daughter was disadvantaged in any way from her lack of competition experience, but her overall performing time made up for it. Good luck to her and to you! It’s such an exciting time.

Mom of a bass-baritone who was accepted everywhere he auditioned with nice merit money: Posters who mentioned singers develop a bit later are so correct. My kid has been singing professionally since fifth grade (boy soprano–sang often at Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall, etc). His voice change, however, was long and not easy. In fact, his voice is still changing. He attended a choir school in elementary and middle school and a performing arts high school, with Saturday preconservatory classes. He had a voice teacher at his high school, and one at his preconservatory program. And both said that as a male with a low voice (these often take many years to ripen), he absolutely should avoid competitions. So we avoided them. It was really difficult though–so many of his classmates were involved in competitions and the weekly school newsletter was filled with congrats to his classmates who had won this competition or that. He definitely spent a lot of his high school comparing himself to other more developed singers. (He did do All-State and the school operas and musicals.) We were also told not to worry about summer courses until the summer between junior and senior year, when his teachers felt it would be helpful. So he did Oberlin Vocal Arts and Tanglewood last summer. He did say that the boys at Tanglewood were, for the most part, still working with their changing voices. And the staff saw that as normal. My son is a whiz at ear training, theory, music history, keyboard and all those other musicianship that help. And his grades are good. His SAT was good (not crazy-amazing, but certainly good.) And his recommendations were glowing. Oh, and he had a gig singing at an episcopal church each Sunday. All of those things helped him.

Like @coloraturagirl , we did the twice-a-week lessons, which I think were very helpful. His pre-conservatory program also gave him a lot of opportunities to sing in front of people with recitals, solos, etc. He also had a very wide-ranging repertoire thanks to church, choir, school, Saturday program, etc.

One interesting note: Early on in our admissions journey, I thought it was essential to have a connection to a school (doing a summer course at a school so you can meet the teacher). At the end of our journey, I realized I had been wrong. My son ended up at was a school where he knew no staff members: Eastman. In fact, he got into several schools where he didn’t know any of the staff. And he got into schools where he did know the staff. I also know kids who did summer programs at certain schools, applied to those schools and didn’t get in. So… I no longer think knowing a professor is as important as having potential. That’s just my two cents, though. Someone else may feel differently.

We were told by his vocal teachers that the combination of a strong audition, strong recommendations, strong grades and yes, strong aural and theory tests, are what got him the merit money. Kids are told that the aural and theory tests are for placement and doing poorly on these won’t hurt a person’s chances. And I do think that is true. But I also have been told that a kid who is strong in everything (including aural and theory) is more likely to get merit money. Oh, and niceness. My kid is really respectful. Shows up in a suit, is comfortable speaking with adults, is not pushy, holds doors open, stands when someone enters a room, and in the group interviews that a few schools had, he behaved himself. (There were, supposedly, a few kids who were bragging or monopolizing the conversation or name-dropping in group interviews.)

All the above adds up–more than competitions. You really don’t need them. You need potential (which includes the ability to be coached), and you need commitment to excellence (which grades are a part of–they’ll be especially important next year, I have a feeling), and a play-well-with-others personality, and a love of performing. Focus on the prize, not the shiny objects that can be so distracting!

Oh, and @Pl1277–you had asked how you gauge your kid’s talent or skill. I definitely had this problem. I knew my kid could sing, but I was completely unsure if he (well, if his voice) was ready for college auditions. He had a pretty limited range last year and was forever going on about how much he hated his adult voice, how he was never going to be able to sing this note or that note, and how he couldn’t try out for this part or that part because of his range. We had about four safety schools included, just in case. His teachers were so complimentary, but my son was so negative about his voice that I didn’t know who to believe. Not having competition wins to go on, we went out there and auditioned and hoped for the best! (So many people must have this same query. I think not knowing “where your kid stands” is one reason why people audition at so many schools, right? )

How to gauge talent level: (I think you probs have some experience with 1 & 2 already but 3 could help.)

1.) Get an assessment, as noted above, by a teacher(s) that regularly sends kids to selective music schools. Where do they suggest?

2.) Watch the kids one year older. Where do kids in a similar boat as your D end up? A good teacher can share “intell” as well about similar students.

3.) Engage your D’s “gut” in the process. This was not something I really considered until we got deeper in the process and it became more evident. I’m not musical so it was hard for me to gauge talent as well. The teachers helped. BUT my D also had a sense of where she belonged. She was involved with peers and teachers/professionals and seemed to know what/where to target.

Try to get your D to watch performances online at target schools (on the schools website or elsewhere if available). My D was looking at schools before all the streaming services were available so our experiences were “live” (or not at all in some cases and making assumptions about “like” schools). At my D’s safety school for VP, it was obvious after visiting a class and seeing a choir that she wasn’t very impressed. She seemed bothered by the experience. Then we went to a selective school…and she was very inspired by their performance. It made her want to work and apply! And note that most students would not want to embarass themselves by being way over their heads…or spend a lot of time on schools that have choirs or performers at about the same level as their high school. So if your D is willing to apply and do the pre-screening for a school, she can probs see herself there (even if expressing doubts…as my D always did…as she worked silently and fiercely on the requirement regardless).

So lean on the teachers AND your kid.

Figuring out our baritone/tenor (still not sure where he will end up, lol) son’s talent was a mystery to his non-musical parents. Sure his HS voice teacher said he had what it takes to make an opera career, and some of those expensive for profit summer programs had praised him, but we did not really know if we could believe them. Competitions were no help in evaluating his talent. As others have commented, they are quite subjective and favor technical skill over raw talent. What did help was just the audition process itself, as he got great feedback from professors at the schools which admitted him. Now, as he finishes his college sophomore year, he is getting feedback from his teachers of course but also when he is able to sing in front of industry veterans, other teachers and grad students. So to those in HS, find a HS teacher who has been around the block and can evaluate talent, trust them, and then strap in and hop on the audition whirlybird!

@vistajay that is the most vivid and accurate description! An audition whirlybird it is, for certain. Thanks for that ?

@bridgenail’s advice is really good. We didn’t have a lot of 1&2 but we did a lot of 3&4!
My son is a freshman voice (music Ed) major at UNT.
Prior to auditions he had never been to a summer program or festival, never done a sample lesson, and never entered a competition other than our high school regional and all state choirs. He entered Young Arts his senior year mainly as prescreen prep. He started voice lessons as a junior and his teacher was no one with experience in getting people into top programs. His high school choir teacher has a DMA and we got good advice from her and others, it just didn’t fit the excellent recommended criteria given here by other wise posters. It was what it was.
You have to be objective about your student’s strengths and weaknesses, as best as you can, and know what they are looking for, and yes, target a range of schools when you aren’t sure where you stand. My son had done very well with all-state. He was one of maybe a dozen total four year all state choir participants. He was in the top three in his section. So we knew where he fit in our state. He had a short list of schools due to his particular wants, and was accepted to all of them. It wasn’t a super reachy list, but his acceptances were for performance, not “just” music Ed.
I’ll also add that S went through the college audition process on cello as well. It was maybe easier to ascertain if the student is at the right level on an instrument other than voice. There’s chair tests in bands and orchestras and more “ranking” opportunities in general. By his sophomore year we had looked at audition requirements for various colleges and there are Specific repertoire requirements. He had to be able to play a concerto and a Bach suite for most schools. Those are clear targets. A few had more extensive or specific requirements, a few had less (“play a solo”). It was easier to say which would be likely admits and which might be closer to impossible, with a wide range in the middle.