<p>per the NYT Book Review section today on a review of the new book "The Great American University"....." In 1980 average private tuition was 20% of median family income, but it is 50% today".</p>
<p>And it just happens to match the upward and growing mania over admissions competition…with wayyy ridiculous focus on rankings, tiers, and other nonsense. </p>
<p>I work in the industry. Its very well known that price is viewed an indicator of quality: unlike a lot of products, demand goes up, not down with price increase. When we raised our tuition by over 100% one year, we had a GIANT increase in demand the follow year. I’m not kidding. </p>
<p>There is simply NOT that much difference between colleges yet kids and parents seem to think so more than ever. People just don’t realize its a product being marketed to them, just like any other for profit industry.</p>
<p>I might agree except that when I read the course descriptions of my kids classes and hear him rave about his professors and the level of discussion in class, then I look at the support services - amount and ease of use - I think to myself, there IS a difference in quality, but it’s also a great deal about fit.</p>
<p>Admissions driven enrollment however isn’t like a regular good or service. It’s clearly tied to one’s ego. The “smarter” you are directly affects your choices. The schools themselves can pick and choose their students for the most part and so, they completely control their customer base. The more selective they become in who they choose, the more their product is valued. But again, it is tied to perceived intelligence. I do think there are different degrees of difficulty in some institutions, but I also think there are a lot of really great colleges out there and you don’t have to attend a school on some list to do great things. I’m just suggesting there is some degree of truth that certain schools probably get a better crop of teachers/professors and students able and willing to do work in the classrooms than others. Graduation rates and attrition are very huge to assessing value.</p>
<p>I actually disagree quite a bit. The difference in facilities, appearances, and services may be greater yes. And no doubt in my mind your son is very happy. The difference in faculty? Not at all! Don’t get me started. And while the student body may be different, that is something that is highly highly exaggerated-- the difference between say 650 SAT students and 780 SAT students is not noticeable. I have taught them, I know. And much of what colleges do to raise selectivity has nothing to do with any differences whatsoever in terms of actual education; its selectivity begets selectivity. </p>
<p>I know I’m talking to people who won’t be convinced, but hey, its not my dime.</p>
<p>Starbright-- I agree with you, actually, and happen to believe that with the glut of PhDs a solid humanities and social sciences education can be had for the first couple of years even at the community college level.</p>
<p>I think some math, science and engineering majors might be more difficult to learn, though.</p>
<p>I have heard, on CC, though, and I do not know if it is “true” or not, that it costs 80,000 per year to educate each student, and so even full pay students are not actually covering the cost of thier education. Is this true?</p>
<p>I agree with starbright and poetgrl. My kid who is at the flagship state univ. has instructors that are every bit as brilliant and high powered as my son’s at a top LAC. In fact, my daughter in her on-campus job has had a fairly close up opportunity to view the hiring process for 2 new professors. The caliber of applicants is through the roof, and there are hundreds of them for 2 spots at a state u.</p>
<p>Both my kids still say the very best professor they ever had is at the local regional state u - they both took classes from him there before going on to their current colleges.</p>
<p>^I too agree. My D is in her third year at a large public university, loves it, and is getting a stellar education at a bargain price. She turned down more prestigious (and much more expensive) schools and has no regrets.</p>
<p>It’s human nature to think that the more you pay the better something is. I also tend to agree with Starbright on the standardized test scores. When you get up to a certain level it’s incremental and almost negligible and other drivers come into play.</p>
<p>Education is what you put in to it, not what you pay for it.</p>
<p>
I disagree. In my experience, professors who are primarily teachers teach courses from a much different perspective than professors who are primarily researchers. Research professors incorporate bits and pieces of their own work into the class, refer to work of their colleagues, and generally seem to know much more about the historical development of the subject. I find that much more insightful than a straight out-of-the-textbook class, which seem to be quite common from professors teaching 3+ courses at a time. Candidates might be equally qualified at the time they are hired, but 20 years down the road the differences are quite noticeable.</p>
<p>I agree that attending a private college for “better professors” is a waste of money. But–having experienced middle/high school with great teachers and an average student body, versus average/above-average teachers and a strong student body, there is a qualitative difference in experience. I got a stronger social education but a weaker academic education with the “average” students, because my peers were respectively more diverse but also less academically driven.</p>
<p>Is there a difference between a 650 CR and a 780 CR? I don’t know. I don’t trust the SAT that much, and I haven’t had any experience in college. But I do think there’s a difference in peer engagement between (to pick a comparison close to home for me), say, an introductory English course at Swarthmore vs. UDel, based on secondhand accounts.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, I know someone who transferred from Duke to the flagship. Maybe I’ll ask sometime.</p>
<p>ETA: B@r!um makes an interesting point. Probably flagship vs. university is a simpler comparison, with fewer variables, than flagship vs. LAC. There’s also the self-selection aspect of LACs to account for.</p>
<p>Wait a second- are people actually asserting that a public university education (and I am including not just the so-called public Ivys) could actually be considered equivalent to a private college education???</p>
<p>Borium-- Perhaps this is true if the professor actually teaches the class him/herself, which is rarely the case in an undergraduate setting with truly prestigious researchers.</p>
<p>All of the classes I have taken at Penn were taught by full professors. (And yes, senior faculty at Penn also take turns teaching Calc 1 each semester.)</p>
<p>Well, they don’t teach at Harvard or Yale.</p>
<p>When I visited Yale, their classes were taught by full professors as well. Maybe not by the single most accomplished professor in the department, but by a professor who was accomplished enough to be at Yale nonetheless.</p>
<p>borium-- I am exceptionally glad to hear that you are/were having a fantastic experience at Penn. It is an exceptional place to attend school, and, in particular subjects, incredibly well thought of. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>I think it is absurd to think that the “average” public university education is equivalent to that of a top private college or university. We’re not talking state flagship here but the large mediocre state schools. In my experience, the large state schools have many adjunct or rent a professors. Many whom may not speak very well or teach very well. They may not stay in the sytem very long but they do exist. Private Colleges usually have full professors teaching classes and whose primary job is teaching and they are good at it. Large private universities may have a wide range of professors and be more like the state flagships. I am sure their will be varying opinions on this issue.</p>
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<p>Can’t speak for Harvard, but every class D took at Yale was taught by a full professor. Her intro courses had grad students leading sections, but the classes were taught by a prof.
By junior year, she had several very small seminars with profs who are international leaders in their fields. </p>
<p>I’m not going to get into the argument of public vs private–just wanted to correct this statement.</p>
<p>[Boston.com</a> / News / Education / Higher education / Student life at Harvard lags peer schools, poll finds](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds?pg=full]Boston.com”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds?pg=full)</p>