Counter to other anecdotes, Inside Higher Ed says "Shying Away From Graduate School"

Parents Forum
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<p>Shying</a> Away From Graduate School :: Inside Higher Ed :: Higher Education's Source for News, Views and Jobs</p>

<p>GRE's are projected down for 2008 (although GMATs up), and GRE's are closely correlated with graduate school applications.</p>

<p>Interesting since there are number of other reports out there that grad school apps are up, and the common wisdom is that in times of economic difficulty, more go back to (grad) school.</p>

<p>excerpts

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When the economy tanks, graduate school applications go up. That’s one of the few bits of good news in which educators could have reasonably taken comfort this year. No more.</p>

<p>Educators who learned of the GRE drop Friday in a question-and-answer session at the annual meeting of the Council of Graduate Schools said that they were shocked and some said that they were worried. The GRE drop reflects both those in the United States and international students seeking to enroll in American graduate programs.

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On Friday, David G. Payne, associate vice president of ETS for college and graduate programs, said that the “current hypothesis” is that the credit crunch is discouraging some people from considering graduate school, especially if they think they will not receive substantial financial support from the programs they might consider.</p>

<p>Payne noted that the projected decreases this year come both from the United States and the rest of the world. ...</p>

<p>Adding to the concern about the falling GRE volume is that it follows several campaigns by ETS to encourage more people to take the test.......

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<p>Maybe calendar year 2008 is too early for the impact of the recession to be felt in the grad school arena. I bet GREs and grad school applications will rise substantially in 2009. Kids who graduated from college in 2008 have been looking for jobs since the spring or earlier, and many are still unemployed or underemployed. Others have already lost good jobs, and not just in the financial sector. It's about now that these kids are coming to grips with just how bad the job market is, and perhaps considering graduate school.</p>

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<p>GREs are down, and GMATs are up. I'm guessing LSATs and perhaps even MCATs (and any other professional school test) would be up too.</p>

<p>People will go back to grad school, yes--but they are going to grad schools that will help them get a private-sector job.</p>

<p>The higher-ed bubble is bursting. People could always get PhDs and knowing the ever-swelling ranks of higher-ed faculty would find a place for them. Now with even the wealthiest universities initiating hiring freezes and even cuts, the basket-weaving dreams must be put aside.</p>

<p>I am willing to wager America graduates far more sociologists and post-colonial theorists than it needs. If we can get more businessmen, doctors, and engineers, all the better (could do without the lawyers, though ;))</p>

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<p>I put off the GRE because i couldn't bring myself to spend the 150$ they charge.... and then the extra 150$ they charge for the subject test.... and then the couple hundred dollars to send the scores to graduate schools... all of that on top of application fees of 50$ or more per grad school. It's just not a cost I had planned on.</p>

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<p>Raise your hand if you use a calculator in your daily life. I thought so.</p>

<p>GRE won't allow testing with a calculator, except as a special circumstance decided by committee. Time-and-a-half and quiet rooms for documented LD students don't take a lot of fancy paperwork at GRE, but calculator usage does. Of course I understand why this is of issue for anyone heading towards a technical field, but the work world is not one-size-fits all.</p>

<p>For my D, who had this accomodation (calculator use) throughout college and wants to become a reading specialist for early elementary school students, she didn't have months in advance to work it all out on the paperwork level. Realistically assuming horrible scores on the math part of the GRE's, and hanging on to her hourly job in a preschool, the deadlines went by. </p>

<p>I'm feeling quite sad about it, actually. I'd like to see her get off the post-B.A. treadmill of low wage jobs, and back into teaching at a higher level. Not all teaching institutions require the GRE to enter an M.A.T. program, but the academically scintillating schools do. By now, it's up to her, but that's my take on the situation.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, she's doing fabulous things in the performing arts, including theatrical circus stilting, but she needs the better income for the long haul, even to keep performing as an artist for the rest of her life. It's the dual track that's hard to achieve: art and bread.</p>

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<p>Under normal circumstances, you don't need a calculator to take the GRE. If you need accommodations, the GRE will generally work it out with you, but it does take time and some paperwork, meaning advanced thought. Without a learning disability, however, the math on the GRE just doesn't require a calculator to do effectively. The percentile ranks on the GRE math are weird -- I scored a 740, but that was only 82nd percentile because the GRE math section is relatively easy.</p>

<p>In any case, I know that in a recession entrance into graduate school goes up, but there's also the problem of funding it. Most Ph.D programs are still funded (I'm here) but most master's programs are not, and unless you go to a program where federal aid covers the whole thing, getting private loans to cover costs may be difficult for students. Also, like someone else said, academic year 2008-2009 may be too early to feel the effects of the slump -- most people wouldn't even admit we were in a recession until last year.</p>

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<p>
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I know that in a recession entrance into graduate school goes up, but there's also the problem of funding it. Most Ph.D programs are still funded (I'm here) but most master's programs are not, and unless you go to a program where federal aid covers the whole thing, getting private loans to cover costs may be difficult for students.

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<p>Absolutely, Juliett. And many masters programs provide the terminal degree for career fields that the country needs to get out of our difficulties, including public school teaching and several others that come to mind. </p>

<p>Not all MA's are for the infamous example of "basketweaving," although I know of one for puppetry ;) </p>

<p>My serious hope is the federal loan program will look at some practical career fields such as teaching, nursing and others, to provide some help beyond the rah-rah level for students to take those terminal masters degrees, when funding is in their way.</p>

<p>At ages 21-30ish, money can be a dealbreaker, even in what some adults might dismiss as small amounts, as posted by trout above who found GRE fees and grad school application fees problematic this year.</p>

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<p>here's a reference to some Kaplan data....perhaps their view on testing is more recent than the OP article.....</p>

<p>WBIR.com</a> | Knoxville, TN | More people head back to school but are the jobs going to be available when they get out?</p>

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In a volatile job market, graduate schools and community colleges alike are seeing an increase in applications. </p>

<p>Testing giant Kaplan said it's seen as much as a 45 percent rise in business, law and graduate school applications since September 1st. </p>

<p>Applications are up 76 percent at Southern Methodist University's Cox School of Business. </p>

<p>"Any time the economy is tough, not unlike this period that we are going through, we see an increase in applications for MBA programs," said Marci Armstrong, the associate dean for graduate programs at SMU. </p>

<p>Armstrong said the school hasn't seen such a surge since after Sept. 11, 2001. </p>

<p>"Some of the applicants are anticipating layoffs and they're going to get in now assuming that they're going to be laid off or that they are vulnerable to a layoff," Armstrong said.

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<p>Interesting article! Concerning MBA's. I only want to add that, concerning higher education and practical applications, some Ph.D's in fields some mock as not essential, for example, Anthropology, are missing the fact that consultants with expertise in the social sciences are used by corporate businesses to make all kinds of marketing decisions. It continues to bother me when some folks belittle a Ph.D. in Anthropology as their poke-fun example for something useless. It's used in the business world, too, not just in academia to generate even more undergrad Anthro majors.</p>

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<p>juillet, there is now the GradPLUS loan to cover the total cost of attendance after the subsidized and unsubsidized federal loans. The interest rate is 7.9 or 8.5 depending on whether you get it from the feds or a bank. The credit requirements are simple and just about anyone should qualify (no recent bankruptcies or loans past due 90 days or more) or get a cosigner.</p>

<p>If you need more than that, then you need to learn to cut your budget more. Private loans are pretty scarce now anyway.</p>

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<p>"Raise your hand if you use a calculator in your daily life. I thought so."</p>

<p>Sorry, but seriously?!</p>

<p>For an average student, GRE math is doable in one's head for the most part (much of it can even be done w/o paper). A calculator on the GRE quant section wouldn't really even help that much because much of the math on the GRE is about finding patterns and creatively solving them while staying within a set of logical rules (i.e., those of mathematics) -- which is something that is helpful in many non-math-related fields (it's basically the science of finding more efficient ways of doing things, finding loopholes and shortcuts). One problem that occurs to me with allowing her to use a calculator is that it would defeat the need to find those patterns strategically, which, while in many cases useless, would in other cases allow her to defeat the whole system, yielding a score with extremely low validity and likely low reliability as well. I really see no reason why your d should get special privileges to use a calculator on it. If she cannot do the work that is expected of her peers, then why should she get special accommodations? I think schools should be able to see her quant scores in comparison directly w her peers'. It is up to them whether a low quant score is a good reason to deny her admission. If they feel it's irrelevant as you seem to be implying, then a 300 or 400 on the GRE quant scale shouldn't matter if her verbal is high enough, but I don't see how you have any right to claim that schools don't need an accurate representation of her ability on that scale.</p>

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<p>
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For an average student, GRE math is doable in one's head for the most part.

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<p>Maybe for an average student with a penchant for math. I have a daughter who's brain simply doesn't wrap around mathmatic principles. She learned enough in high school to ace courses in advanced algebra and geometry, but like me, as soon as she walked out the door at the end of the year, the information just ... disappeared. On her SAT she got an 800 in verbal, a 540 in math. ... I think calculators should be allowed on GRE exams, especially when many of the takers have been away from high school math for years. Of course, a calculator won't do you any good if you don't know how to apply it to the question at hand. :)</p>

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<p>I don't know about getting to use a calculator...do you get scratch paper? I know my sister sucks at math. She can't do anything higher than arithmetic to save her life, she's more of an english person. She may have to stay an extra semester or two when she gets to college, because her math skills are so bad. Me, on the other hand, I love math...I still remember the quadratic equation, and hate writing papers.</p>

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<p>You're missing the point, though, the test is meant to test for the ability to recognize patterns. Look at the GRE quant questions and you'll see that. The argument of getting to use a calculator on the quant section like asking to use a dictionary on the verbal section! It completely bypasses half of what they're testing!</p>

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<p>I have to agree with apumic. I got an 800 quant on the gre but I did bad on the verbal. Why shouldn't I be able to use a dictionary? Or at least some kind of cheat sheet with prefixes and suffixes and their meanings? The entire point of the GRE is to measure how often you use your skills. If you do lots of math then the math section is easy because those problems are all fairly common. If you read and write a lot then you'll have a more intuitive sense of grammar and be more able to recognize different words. Everyone already uses microsoft word to write which not only corrects the majority of errors but also has a built in thesaurus! So why even have a verbal section to begin with?</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/education/09graduate.html?ref=us%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/education/09graduate.html?ref=us&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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“If historic patterns hold, enrollments should rise in a recession, but they have not yet,” said Debra W. Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools. “We’re trying to figure out why the pattern is changing, and the loan situation can’t be ignored. </p>

<p>“If you take a field like education, nearly 60 percent of students report self-funding as their primary source of support, and what self-funding means is a mixture of personal savings and loans.” </p>

<p>And while the expectation might typically be that an economy in recession will pull out of it within two years — about the time needed to get a master’s degree — the severity of the current financial situation may be making people wary about leaving a job, even a bad job, to go to graduate school, Dr. Stewart said. </p>

<p>In doctoral programs that support students with fellowships or teaching assistantships, she said, the recession and looming budget cuts will also take a toll.

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<p>GRE</a> Participation Down - On Education (usnews.com)</p>

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Educators have various theories as to why the GRE numbers are expected to drop:</p>

<ol>
<li>This year is just an anomaly. </li>
<li>This recession is different from ones past and people are "feeling poorer" or are clinging to their jobs more strongly than before. </li>
<li>The perception that the private student loan market is tightening up. </li>
<li>The perception that school budgets are being slashed and fellowship opportunities are drying up, discouraging applicants. </li>
<li>The rush will come soon enough. "It could be that this has created a temporary pause where we would have normally seen a flow to graduate school," said Debra Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools. "That the flow hasn't started doesn't mean it won't." </li>
</ol>

<p>Educators are particularly worried that the GRE numbers reflect a decreasing interest in graduate programs. The timing couldn't be worse as some schools enroll more undergraduates, yet have also been hit with faculty hiring freezes, forcing programs to rely more heavily on graduate student instructors to lead more classes.

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<p>More</a> considering grad school in tough times - Features</p>

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According to a new Kaplan survey released in November, there has been a marked increase in interest in Kaplan's law and business school preparation programs this fall, and the number of people taking tests such as the LSAT or GMAT has noticeably increased. The same survey mentioned that in the United States alone, the number of people taking the GMAT, a test required for applications to business schools, rose 5.8 percent.

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<p>more counterpoint, but much on the MBA side which is a bit different than the GRE issue</p>

<p>Sagging</a> Economy Boosts Business School Applications</p>

<p>Economy</a> Influences Graduate School Applications - The Daily Californian</p>

<p>Bad</a> market doesn't affect PSU graduate applications - The Daily Collegian Online</p>

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<p>There's a lot of debt out there. Maybe students are leary of going to grad school and taking on more student loans? </p>

<p>It's a tough economy. </p>

<p>Our son, is doing post MS work, but looking. He is fortunate in that he has managable loans and open offer to continue towards funded phD. Trouble is that a phD pays no more than a MS and the work the same.</p>