I have to agree with that. Even in the same college for the same course, it may depend on the instructor in a given year. The same course taught by a demanding instructor will be harder. I can’t imagine how an employer would know that however astute they may be. Besides, even the most motivated students may not want to make the most rigorous choices every semester.
Yes, I only listed numbers for 3.2+ GPA and 30+ MCAT. A 3.2 GPA and 30 MCAT are both well below average for highly selective colleges with grade inflation, like WUSTL, but the grid does show a significant number of applicants with stats near the bottom of their class. For example, there was an applicant with a 2.8-2.99 GPA and 5-14 MCAT (he was accepted) and an applicant with a 1.47 to 1.99 GPA and 15-17 MCAT (he was rejected). Other highly selective private colleges with notable grade inflation usually report a higher med school acceptance rates than WUSTL. For example, Yale reports an 88% overall med school acceptance rate and 95% MD/PhD acceptance rate at http://ocs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_stats.pdf . Harvard reports a 95% acceptance rate among applicants with a 3.5+ GPA (3.5 is likely below average GPA at Harvard). Although this may relate to others doing more to dissuade students with a lower chance of acceptance from applying.
If WUStL does committee letters, then it may be that the low stat applicants who were encouraged by the committee to apply to medical school are those who had “something extra” that made them likely to be admitted (possibly to specific medical schools where that “something extra” was valued), while other low stat applicants without “something extra” were dissuaded from applying.
If this was the case, then I’d expect the mean GPA of applying students to be well above the mean GPA of the overall class since a large portion of the lower GPA students are being dissuaded from applying, as they do not have “something extra”. If I assume the mean GPA of each block is the mid point (for example 3.8 to 4.0 block has GPA of 3.9), then I get a mean GPA of those applying to med school is 3.42, which is actually a bit lower than the mean GPA of the overall class at WUSTL (probably relates to pre-meds being less likely to major in humanities than overall class).
^first cut based on major doesn’t seem like the best approach - while “gender studies” may sound like an easy major, what about gender studies + several A’s in statistics applying for a marketing position? Cutting that applicant just because you see “gender studies” would be a problem in my opinion since that background would bring a lot of interesting perspectives on marketing to women or girls to contrast with other perspectives. What about someone in Visual Arts for that position - would they be immediately cut or would something else help them? What about double majors with “Finance, Philosophy”? What about a Philosophy major with a Finance minor? A Classics major?
“Rigor” also depends on what you plan to do. A friend of mine, majoring in Teaching ESL and Russian Literature, was told to take Calculus “for rigor”. This was idiotic advice: she got her only C (in an all-A college career) and it was of zero use to her, whereas an intro stats course might have been usefulor another “Math and the world” might have.
As for Yale: most law schools, med schools, employers, etc, will NOT care about the x in 3.9x, not even in the 3.8x. They’ll see 3.75+ and Yale, plus presumably a good resume. For PHDs, even the higher ranked ones will also not care about the x after 3.8 or 3.9. Obviously, being at Yale does not guarantee admission everywhere one applies, but a Yale student with a 3.80 WILL get into a funded PHD program somewhere.
I have to say I find this thread a bit depressing. College is a unique time to study and explore, not just a time to prep for your first job. I get that med school and popular top firms that get 100s of applications use GPA as a screening tool. However, the vast majority of employers use primarily experience, major and interviews to find the candidates that fit. My advice to my DCs is do not waste the college opportunity. Don’t worry about grades or rigor. Take the interesting courses from the interesting profs. It is your only chance to do so. Whatever your first job there are likely many, many more jobs, so if it less than ideal you can course correct with experience.
I agree with 1012mom. I tell my DCs the same. Follow your interests. Find the good professors. Pursue learning for learning’s sake. They are loving college, are incredibly happy – they bubble over with enthusiasm when they talk about their academics. Of course I still worry sometimes. I hope my advice is good. But I stick firmly to it b/c when will they ever have a time to explore their intellectual horizons like this again? And I want them to find their strengths and interests b/c work is deadly if you don’t enjoy it at some level, so they need to explore who they are.
Happy to see the thread coming around to what I believe - High School is a rat race - take the hardest classes, get all A’s, take higher level classes, take a million AP classes, etc. - very little learning for the love of knowledge. College should not be like that. Take electives because they are something that interests you. Take classes that are the complete opposite of your major (art classes for stem majors, etc.)
@1012mom, you want to see depressing? Go to Bogleheads.org (a forum devoted to sensible lifestyles and investing in the style of John Bogle, the founder of Vanguard) and look at the posts by young people who are counting the minutes until they can retire. What I want for my DC are fulfilling careers.
The conflict is that for some kids, my DS among them, the courses he finds interesting are often those in which an A is not easily come by. An example: Math 230 was one of the reasons DS applied to Yale. He started enjoying math only as a HS soph/junior, so he didn’t have the math background of the kids in the class, not at par with the math majors who avoided the course or dropped down to an easier course (222 or 120). Maybe he should have taken the course pass/fail, or taken the easier variants, but he stayed in the class even as a large proportion dropped down, made great and ongoing friends in his study group, and learned how to write proofs. As his parent, I am prouder of that B+ than I would be of an A in Math for Poets (I don’t know if such a course exists; no insult is intended to its students or teachers if it does).
Maybe it is hoping for the unlikely and reading a resume/transcript with that degree of care won’t happen in today’s world of mass applications, but IMO it would be a good thing if future schools and employers gave appropriate credit to kids who took 230 rather than the Math for Poets course.
While I agree with 1012 whole-heartedly and that’s what I’ve been telling my kid, I think we are talking about different kids. My kid to whom this would be a perfect guidance is a quintessential type B and on a career track that suits her type. Kids at Yale who are thinking about 3.9x probably have totally different career in mind. Uber cimpatitive type making a lot of money. I happen to knwo a few who take in 7 figure base salary and not yet 30. They would grow a third arm if that will advance their career. They wouldn’t go about how humans aren’t meant to have two arms.
@ Comment 89
It’s the intangibles that will endure. IxnayB’s example of his son’s effective approach to Math 230 will not only stay with him, but most likely help him master other challenges. Being part of a group working together and supporting each other, as well as recognizing the benefits of seeking help, are important “skills” to master. And, now IB’s son most likely has a great group of friends. All that can’t possibly be reflected in any grade or GPA, regardless of where it falls on the curve.
Are they itching to retire as soon as they can, or are they just looking to that time when they can retire, but will not necessarily retire?
Being able to retire, even if one has no intention of doing so at the moment, means that you can weather an indefinitely long job loss or economic downturn, can be more picky about future jobs, and may have more options if changing to a different type of job and career. Over 40+ years, most people will encounter economic or industry downturns, or need to change and adapt their skills to changes in technology and economy. Since such events often result in lower or no income for a significant period of time, those whose personal finances are at the “able to retire” stage have an advantage compared to those who need the next paycheck to pay the bills that just came in.
@ucbalumnus, I think you’re describing the difference between being financially independent and retiring. We’ve been financially independent for some time, but my wife still works and I expect to do something after the nest empties (I’ve been a stay-at-home-Dad for over a decade).
Financial independence is liberating. Hating your job, hating your employer, being miserable every additional day that you go to work – that’s depressing to see in young people. Old people too, for that matter, but especially young people who should be jumping out of bed in the morning with anticipation of an interesting day.
Of course, today’s young people who may have entered the work force during the most recent economic downturn, or whose interesting early-career jobs vanished in the economic downturn, may have had to take whatever job that they can get because there were no other choices, so they may still be in “job survival mode” (i.e. cannot afford to be picky about finding a desirable job), especially if they had to consume much of their early-career savings and investment while unemployed during the economic downturn.
OP’s question has been on my mind for over a decade and I still do not have an answer for it. In the article I posted earlier, Munzi wants both vigor and GPA:
Then, your degree should be in something hard: math, physics, electrical engineering, analytical philosophy, computer science, and so on. It’s okay to major in history or literature, but you better have some really tough quantitative or analytical classes on your transcript, and have done very well in them. If your GPA is below about 3.5, you’re out unless there is some really compelling rationale for why. The average successful candidate has a GPA above 3.7. Everyone understands how bad grade inflation is, and that it’s worst in the most elite schools. Any reasonably smart person with good instincts about course selection can figure out how to get a decent GPA at one of these schools. A GPA-plus-major screen is not about IQ, as much as it is a quick screen to see who is capable of figuring out how to succeed in a new environment, and of doing at least some sustained work. Screeners and interviewers will typically look at the transcript to make judgments about raw candlepower; for example, checking which calculus sequence the candidate completed, and if it was the most difficult track, what grades were achieved.
If your choice is between GPA and course vigour? Here is Laszlo Bock at Google:
“I was on campus speaking to a student who was a computer science and math double major, who was thinking of shifting to an economics major because the computer science courses were too difficult. I told that student they are much better off being a B student in computer science than an A+ student in English because it signals a rigor in your thinking and a more challenging course load. That student will be one of our interns this summer.”
Or, he added, think of this headline from The Wall Street Journal in 2011: “Students Pick Easier Majors Despite Less Pay.” This was an article about a student who switched from electrical and computer engineering to a major in psychology. She said she just found the former too difficult and would focus instead on a career in public relations and human resources. “I think this student was making a mistake,” said Bock, even if it meant lower grades. “She was moving out of a major where she would have been differentiated in the labor force” and “out of classes that would have made her better qualified for other jobs because of the training.”
Then here’s research that contradict him:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323997004578640241102477584
I suspect it all comes down to the luck of the draw. If I have to play percentages, @Data10’s list on post 17 looks good to me.
I get the whole anxiety about the first job thing. However, I think that it is likely that the skills and lessons learned in the B+ class will be the difference to getting the best first job. DD1 graduated last May from a highly selective, but not ivy, New England school. Universally her friends who got the best jobs (defined as jobs they wanted in their field) were the ones who had worked the internships, and worked hard and relentlessly to leverage their network and resources to find the best opportunities. Every job search is likely to include many doors slammed in the face. The ability and grit to power through despite the No is what makes the difference. It makes the difference when they are IN that first job too. Getting hired by Google or one of the big consulting firms is only the start. If you don’t have the grit and the people and problem solving skills it is unlikely to lead very far. Smart is only part of the story, and there are many different kinds of lessons to kern in college.
It is also important for DCs to understand there are multiple paths to get wherever it is you want to go. There may be one opportunity missed because someone else has a higher GPA, but then there might be an opportunity gained because the hiring manager did the same EC, or had the same major, or likes the title of the DC’s thesis. Forget worrying about the small variation in grades. Work on getting interesting and valuable internship, research and leadership experience. That will make more of a difference in the long run.
The worry is the first “cull” of resumes. When a difference of 3.90 v. 3.95 may mean your child’s resume doesn’t warrant an interview. Then, there is little chance personality, experience, or references from prior internships even get an airing before a potential recruiter or employer.
Never mind the 3.80 GPA kid. How many Bs can you even afford to safely be in the 3.90 range. Do colleges award fractional grade points for high Bs. I recall my college did not. It was strictly A=4.0; B=3.0. The test grades that went into the final semester grade were curved into As and Bs.
IxnayBob wrote:
“Go to Bogleheads.org (a forum devoted to sensible lifestyles and investing in the style of John Bogle, the founder of Vanguard) and look at the posts by young people who are counting the minutes until they can retire. What I want for my DC are fulfilling careers.”
I had the same reaction to the responses on that Bogleheads.org that you have. It appeared that for a large majority of the posters, the only purpose of work was to make enough money to retire – the earlier the better. That was never the purpose of my work, and I think my two kids are also more interested in having interesting and challenging careers – doing things – than in the extrinsic rewards. (Not that they mind those benefits!)
I don’t think, however, that the BH crowd is necessarily representative of the younger generation as a whole. People who gravitate to that site are probably a lot more focused on money and finances than the typical person of their age. I think they can learn some useful things on that discussion board about financial planning, but it’s OT to get into general discussions of career choices, occupations, and the like. That is not a website to go to for advice about how to develop a fulfilling – or even an interesting – career.
I don’t think that even with grade inflation the first cull will be 3.9 or 3.8. I have looked at close to a thousand co-op/intern job listings and the highest required GPA I have ever seen was 3.3. I think you risk being cut out from an interview because of other things on your resume way before your GPA. (especially with the automation today companies use to select resumes from on-line applicants using keywords)
If it’s true that 70% get an A at Yale, 3.5 may be scraping the bottom.
I would think it highly depends on one’s career track. If heading to Sillican Vally, I’d think rigor trumps. For top consulting firms where “savvy” counts more than anything else, I’d say x in 3.9x matters not because it means anything. Rather, the attitude. For academic grad school not law oir medical, I’d say it’s both rigor and GPA to survive the program beyond the acceptance.