<p>Our local public magnet requires all the kids to take AP Chem in 10th. None of them have had hs physics or regular chem. It isn’t an option to drop the class without leaving the program and poor grades (more than one C) results in the kid being asked to leave the program. This sounds harsh, but often those kids are trapped in the grind your D is in-working too hard, not sleeping enough, no time for ECs, and a sense of personal failure that isn’t healthy. It’s hard to return to the regular school program, but most of them realize within a year of returning that there are lots of smart kids who aren’t in the magnet and the extra pressure wasn’t worth it. You can be smart, and motivated and talented and creative-and hate living in a pressure cooker. If there is a face-saving way for your D to exit, offer it to her. Virtual charter, regular public high school honors classes…there are many options but no one should be working that hard in one class in 10th grade.</p>
<p>Soph year can be too early to take AP Chem. My kids took AP Bio first and were older when they took AP Chem.</p>
<p>Just to say thanks, Smithie and Proud, for a post that was very comforting to me…you sound very much like my D! The pressure kids are under these days is just…crazy! I hope the OP will come back and tell us how she resolves it for her D…(I’d be working pretty hard if I had to take AP chem right now, I can tell you!)</p>
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<p>Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t understand the reasoning behind these schools pushing sophomores into AP courses - especially something as tough as AP Chemistry. AP courses are suppose to be ‘college-level’ courses. Really, how many sophomores are ready for college level chemistry. And if they are ready, why are they still in HS?</p>
<p>I’m really starting to appreciate my son’s HS philosophy about AP courses. You work your way up to the AP courses by taking regular and honors classes and proving you have earn the right to be in the AP level class. Very few kids take a full load of AP courses until senior year and those are the top performing kids. </p>
<p>The school maintains a 90% pass rate on all AP exams (you are required to take the exam) and 80% have a grade of 4 or 5. On the school profile, they make it very clear that they have stringent requirements to take AP classes. Doesn’t hurt our kids chances of getting into the top schools. This week,alone, at least a dozen out of a class of 70 got into a top 10/Ivy league school and that’s only the ED/EA round.</p>
<p>The way the school explains it, most kid’s brains really aren’t ready to take college level courses as freshman and sophomores and the kids have to work like dogs just to maintain a passing grade. Of course, the risk is the entire GPA falls because of this. If a school pushes AP classes or lets anyone take any AP classes they want, the HS ends up having to ‘water-down’ the AP classes and usually ends up with a dismal pass rate on the AP exams. This doesn’t impress the colleges very much. </p>
<p>At son’s HS, the only AP class they routinely let sophomores take is US History (again, there are always some exceptions for extraordinary talented students) and there are a few more in Jr year (AP English, European History come to mind). </p>
<p>If this was my kid, I would try to get her out of the course, if possible. If not, maybe a tutor is in order. Good luck.</p>
<p>You helped so much. D does have a tutor and tutor.com and tutorvista.com, but that only takes her so far. I want her to drop the class entirely, but it’s doubtful that it will be approved. The GC recommended that she appeal to the department head and principal to switch to a regular chemistry class. Her teacher couldn’t be more fair and is very upfront that the school is not following College Board’s recommendations and the class isn’t being taught in a way that allows the students to “pass” the AP exam, i.e., only 2 in last year’s classes received acceptable scores.</p>
<p>MomLive, if your child is admitted to a public magnet-and in our area it’s a very competitive admission process-its because your child is expected to be able to handle that level of work at that age. This program exists because these unusual kids need the exceptional level of challenge. Most of the kids accepted do succeed in the program, so the selection process seems to work-but there are always a few for whom the pressure is too great. Those children need to find a different solution.</p>
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With this I agree. </p>
<p>Philamom - This is why I think your daughter’s case is sad:
A few kids can handle this as a sophomore however the stress and lack of preparation have put her at risk for hating science. She may struggle through and pass the course but at what cost? Just because you struggle with AP Chem as a 15 year old doesn’t mean you would struggle with the same class as an 18 year old college freshman.</p>
<p>If I were you - I would end this right now by either having her drop it or switching to a regular Chem class.</p>
<p>PhilaMom: if it makes you feel any better, I have a senior DD who is in AP Chem and she is struggling. Tough class! She’s already taken regular chemistry as a sophomore and it was a class that kicked her butt too. We talked with her about the wisdom of taking Chem AP this year after her struggle with regular chem but she adores the teacher. </p>
<p>So at the end of the semester, DD is getting a C. And that’s OK. She loves the class, loves the teacher, but as she says it doesn’t love her back 
Definitely a class she took for the learning not the grade. </p>
<p>I’ll agree with the other posters & say that it’s probably too intense of a class for a sophomore; I have a freshman and I can’t imagine her taking that class next year. You don’t want her to burn out (and I can’t imagine as a parent having to watch her do 5 hours of hw a night!)</p>
<p>Aside from the pain of watching your DD struggle, I’d be really annoyed by what the teacher said about the AP class not being taught to CB standards. What’s the point of taking the class if it doesn’t help you with placement or credit in college? (I know, I know, that’s not the only reason you take AP’s; I’m just sayin’)</p>
<p>If it was my D, I would insist that she agree to drop the AP Chem course, and then I would be at the school demanding that she be allowed to drop from AP Chemistry to the regular chemistry course. Is there some reason they won’t allow this? I know at D’s school you can’t go from regular to AP, because AP sciences are 1.5 period classes and regular sciences are a normal period, so it would wreak havoc with a schedule, but you can always drop down. I think it is ludicrous for the school to not insist on reasonable preparation for an AP course and/or to “water down” a course to the extent that the majority of the students in the class aren’t passing the AP exam. My sophomore D is taking honors chemistry - a first year chem course. Her school will not let anyone into AP Chemistry without taking chemistry first and getting an A in regular chem or a B in honors chem. I think this is such a wise practice. One thing I didn’t understand is why OP’s daughter would have to switch schools. Is it because the school won’t let her drop down? </p>
<p>I always wonder when I read on CC about freshmen and sophomores who are taking multiple AP courses, because that’s just not possible at my D’s school, and I’m grateful for that. D is taking AP European History (that and AP World are the only APs a sophomore can take). It is a tough course - far tougher than the European History course I took in college - and I can see that the piles of work are affecting D’s performance in other classes. There are only 2 A’s in that class (my D does not have one of them), yet year after year, every single kid in her teacher’s AP Euro class passes the AP exam, and there’s rarely more than one “3”, so nearly every kid is passing with a 4 or 5. In my mind, that’s what these AP classes are all about - a true college level course that’s challenging and difficult, and the chance for college credit at the end of the day.</p>
<p>Ooof! People are getting all huffy!</p>
<p>Why offer APs inappropriately, and water them down? Are you being disingenuous? Go ask Jay Mathews. Look at threads on CC with titles like “How many APs do you have to take to get into a good college?” My kid took this class in 10th grade, too, passed the AP test (although not with flying colors), and got a 690 on the SAT II (which had a bunch of material they hadn’t covered – weird kind of disjuncture between the two tests). He wasn’t the only one in his class to do that – I believe that most of them got at least a 3 on the AP. He re-took Gen Chem in college and found that, in fact, he HAD learned most of a semester’s worth.</p>
<p>As for why the school doesn’t offer AP Chem as a second chemistry course: It comes down to resources – teachers and lab time. It would need to add teachers, classrooms, and labs to do that, and it ain’t gonna happen. We’re talking urban school district and 80-year-old building here. The district actually does a pretty amazing job of nurturing and producing elite-level students, but if there is some extra money around it is not going to be spent on them (and, frankly, it shouldn’t be). I note that the school does (or did) offer non-lab electives in biochemistry and organic chemistry for students who wanted more than one chemistry course, and that a very high number of the students who take AP Chemistry also participate in research programs in area biochem labs, of which there are many.</p>
<p>The school isn’t THAT AP-crazy – it doesn’t hold a candle to some of the schools I read about, on CC or elsewhere. Only two AP courses are generally open to 10th graders – Chemistry and European History – and only two to 11th graders – Physics AB and US History (although there are usually several math kids who take Calculus BC before 12th grade, and kids who enter the school with advanced foreign language can take the appropriate AP in 10th or 11th grade, too).</p>
<p>I know, by the way, that several well-regarded suburban school districts in this area have essentially the same pattern. Many children of friends have taken AP Chem in 10th grade, with no more preparation than the city kids have.</p>
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<p>If it’s a true gifted and talented program this makes a lot of sense. If these kids are routinely performing at 2-3 years about grade level in most of their classes, then they absolutely should be in a program like that taking higher level courses. Otherwise, it’s just pushing kids into a pressure cooker situation that will end up backfiring for a lot of kids.</p>
<p>BTW - my son’s school also screens and routinely rejects applicants to the school because the ‘regular’ classes are at least 1-2 years ahead of the public schools and is known to be one of the most rigorous schools in the state - even compared to the public gifted magnet. Even then, they don’t see the value in pushing kids into AP classes until they are ready to pass the AP exams with mostly 4’s and 5’s. If a school is not requiring their students to take the AP exam, then chances are they are watering down the course just to make the school look ‘challenging’ by having a lot of kids take a lot of AP courses.</p>
<p>Most of the colleges are aware of this and aren’t overly concerned about the # of AP courses a kid takes as long as they take the most demanding curriculum available. I don’t see the advantage to putting a kid like the OP’s into a highly stressful situation where she is likely to fail or, at best, screw up her GPA. Why not just take classes in a progressive order, unless a kid shows an exceptional level of talent? I guess if the HS doesn’t offer regular Chemistry, etc, then you have no choice but as a parent of a senior applying to college right now I will say, GPA definitely counts for a lot. It might not be everything but it is very heavily weighted in the process.</p>
<p>By the same token, colleges are beginning to take the whole AP course thing with a grain of salt. Here is an article explaining why. I’ve read probably a half-dozen of these types of articles or post on college blogs in the last couple of months and at most of the college information sessions we attended ( some at tippy-top schools) the whole AP thing was downplayed quite a bit.</p>
<p>[USATODAY.com</a> - Advanced Placement: A detour for college fast track?](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-03-20-ap-main_x.htm]USATODAY.com”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-03-20-ap-main_x.htm)</p>
<p>Neither of my kids ever took AP science. At their private schools it simply was not encouraged to take AP courses in areas in which you had no real strength or interest. The regular courses were hard enough. A top kid would graduate from their schools with 3-5 AP classes, typically. D graduated from Rice and S is a Penn senior.</p>
<p>I think your D should drop the class.</p>
<p>My junior D is very sciency and loves chemistry and AP Chem is still a very hard class for her, far exceeding all her others (including 2 other AP courses) in terms of hours spent per night.</p>
<p>I’m sorry that I don’t have a link to the story, but I do recall reading that people who are massively stressed in their teens and early twenties are much, much more likely to be depressed in their forties. </p>
<p>Some kids are daffodils – they bloom bright and early. Others are roses. They need more time in the sunshine to blossom. A few are Lenten Roses that bloom quietly in the oddest of seasons. They are all beautiful - but the one stupid thing one can do to ruin any of them is to insist that they bloom on someone else’s schedule. It’s called “forcing” and it quickly exhausts the plant. </p>
<p>The teen years are challenging enough without these brutal schedules. My own pair of kiddos have embraced the IB program and (mostly) have loved it. But there have been times for both offspring when I’ve had to put my oar into the system and say “Enough!” Sometimes it is as simple as a teacher getting bizarre ideas of what is suitable. </p>
<p>The school/sports/homework treadmill sometimes needs someone to say STOP ALREADY. The student sometimes can’t. The parent has to wear the black hat and push the stop button, even as the coach, student, teacher and pals squawk. It’s hard to know when to do this but a good sign that the black hat is needed is if the student has night after night of misery.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for your input. We’ve been through the channels, and she is not permitted under any circumstances to drop the class or transfer, even though it’s a 6th major. She spent the entire break studying, went back and is even more stressed than before, and midterms are next week. </p>
<p>We’re thinking of pulling the plug entirely and letting her finish the year in a cyber charter although she won’t be permitted back into her magnet school. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Are other students in the class struggling? Are your daughter’s grades consistently in the bottom half of the class? I would ask - if she’s not keeping up with the class it’s one issue and if the whole class is struggling it’s another.</p>
<p>I feel so bad for your D. It is pretty obvious staying in the class is doing her no good. I would start going up the administrative ladder before switching schools. Yes, you will be stepping on toes, but your D is your priority. Start with the academic dean, then the headmaster and onto the school committee (if there is one) and superintendent. To force her to continue in this class is ridiculous and indicates someone is being entirely inflexible and rigid. </p>
<p>good luck.</p>
<p>Philamom- what does “any circumstances” mean? Illness, disability, are these not circumstances???</p>
<p>If it were me, I would send a registered letter to the principal of the school and the guidance counselor informing them that your child will be dropping AP Chem as of 1/15 or whatever date the semester ends. You are requesting a meeting to discuss how dropping the class will impact your D-- does it mean she gets an F for the year and has to withdraw? Can she take chemistry over the summer and get a P which then removes the F? Can she not graduate in Pennsylvania without chemistry and therefore needs to move to Montana or another jurisdiction-- or must they allow her to take chemistry at another time in order to fulfill the curriculur requirement? Or if she is home-schooled in chemistry and passes a basic proficiency exam (like the New York State Regents in Chemistry- nowhere near as difficult as the AP) does chemistry appear on the transcript as “passed high school chemistry” with no designation as to honors, AP, etc???</p>
<p>In other words- inform them that your D is dropping the course, that you are aware that actions have consequences and that therefore you are scheduling a meeting to discuss those consequences and your educational options.</p>
<p>This is the worst of Catch 22 in my mind. I don’t know that there is pedagogical value in taking a course where a kid hasn’t fulfilled the pre-reqs. I don’t think there is value in keeping your kid in an educational environment where the grownups don’t care when a kid is frustrated and can’t stay afloat. I know that you are setting your D up for a very bad outcome here. It’s one thing to set a high bar and have a kid plug away steadily, get a B or C and feel satisfaction at having met a tough challenge. (I have one kid like that.) It’s another to put a kid in a situation where there’s no human way to meet the challenge, leading to a nasty spiral of exhaustion, frustration, and complete distrust of the parents and teachers who couldn’t find a solution to the situation.</p>
<p>Kids who don’t have a strong math preparation will find AP Chem and AP Physics very challenging. And to take the AP course without the math, and defend it by saying, “oh, most of the kids only get a 2 on the AP exam anyway” is hogwash. There is minimal value in learning the concepts taught in chemistry without being able to run the numbers or complete a calculation. You might as well learn to swim from reading a magazine.</p>
<p>I think it’s good advice to go back to the school and find out how your D is doing compared to the other students. If all are struggling that is as important as it is important if only your D is struggling. Secondly, your D is a sophomore so maybe 15 years old or so. At this age as a parent you still need to ensure that your D maintains healthy emotional growth as well as healthy intellectual growth and healthy physical growth. None of us can tell you what to do with your D but you need to be holistic about the solution.</p>
<p>PhilaMom, to me it doesn’t make sense to offer an AP class that is requiring 5 hours of homework a night, and then have very few students receive acceptable scores on the AP test. At that rate of work, everyone should have a 5 nailed down within the first two months. What is being taught? I agree with the suggestions of other posters that you should find out how the other students are reacting to the class. Also, it would be useful to identify your daughter’s particular problem–quantity of memorization (there is a lot, with compound-naming practices and qualitative inorganic), inadequate math background for the course, some conceptual issues?</p>
<p>AP’s that require unusual amounts of work are suspect, in my opinion. In college, a student should be spending 2 to 3 hours a week outside of class, for each hour in class. Take a look at the credit awarded for AP Chem at a few universities, and it’s easy to do the math on this. Admittedly, for chemistry, the 2-3 might be more like 6-9 hours, but that’s per week, outside of class.</p>