<p>As a debate coach would say, where is the inherency in the harm claimed in post #40? High school students shop for colleges, and mostly they shop on the basis of geography and price. They make up their own minds where to attend among the colleges that admit them.</p>
<p>I agree with the idea that peer assessment should be a completely separate rank, because it is the only one that lets parents and students know where the school ranks academically...which, after all, is what we should care about most.
In terms of other more meaningful stats, how about a number that quantifies the efforts that a school puts into its security? How about a rank that tells parents and students what percentage of students (who apply)get into their, let's say, top 3 choices for graduate school? Something more meaningful than "annual giving," and the like. I am sure that many out there have great ideas concerning what is, or is not, meaningful in terms of rank.</p>
<p>gabriellaah,
PA does NOT, repeat NOT, show where a school ranks academcally. It is not a defined number and has different meaning even for those individuals completing the surveys. And its insight into schools is highly questionable. At best, it is a measure among academics of who is writing the most articles for publication, winning the most research contracts, winning various academic panel awards and the like. To my knowledge, it has no reference to the quality of the teaching that goes on in the classroom. In fact, PA is not responsive to the needs of the consumer (students and parents) at all. I like very much your suggestion that some part of a faculty measurement should be the success of their graduates. After all, the reason that students go to college is to get a good job or prepare to go to graduate school. It sure would be nice if faculty had some skin in that game.</p>
<p>Arizona and sarah lawrence both suck, their move wont work, they will regret it later.</p>
<p>It does not show where a school ranks academically by YOUR definition hawkette. It does reflect where a school ranks in the minds of other Academcis, research funding groups, and the many groups that give various awards to outstanding faculty as they define the term. In class teaching effectiveness is difficult to measure on a mass basis. However it is certainly true that grad school connections and in some cases employment connections for a member of the National Academy of Science will carry more weight than some unknown prof from Podunk U.</p>
<p>"I care, because you care, so much" Elinore to Henry II in "The Lion in Winter"</p>
<p>This actually pretty accurately describes my motivation for posting on CC. </p>
<p>But on the thread, USNWR has flaws and it has changed over the years to correct flaws and will probably continue to change but I have to agree with the bulk of the posters that I have not heard of much else that would be superior. Some of the suggestions for other kinds of data seem valid but there is nothing wrong with having multiple sources of data. I think if these colleges were to succeed a very nice anti-trust case could be brought against them.</p>
<p>There is a wonderful lie that is told in this country to all students as they enter elementary school...they can all grow up to be presidents, or doctors, or ceo's, or what ever they wish to be. This is quite different that the methods used in say Japan or China for identifying the brightest right from the start and teaching them accordingly, but that point is for another day. The myth that each child is of equal ability fades as the trip though high school begins and as the competition for college admission intensifies reality sets in. At a parents meeting at the public high school the other day in the richest town in southwestern CT. the room was filled with over 250 people with horrible expressions on their faces, their child did not get in to the school of their choice, or their second choice, or their third etc etc... And they quickly discovered that if they thought that the school could help they were sadly mistaken. Change the ratings of schools and you take one more step in delaying the inevitable...I am sure that Chevy and Ford would love it if all these surveys that show Toyota and Honda make better cars would go away...More information is always better than less in the field of education since most of it is wrong anyway...if you are charging the same price for a Holy Cross education as you are for an Amherst education you certainly don't appreciate someone pointing out that one is better than the other.</p>
<p>barrons,
Actually, barrons, I don't have a definition of Peer Assessment. No one does and that is a large part of the problem. It is a completely undefined number and is the only subjective factor in the entire USNWR survey. If you can explain it to me, then I'd love to hear your explanation on behalf of all those who responded. </p>
<p>Given your place in the world of academia and mine in the world of business, we are destined to disagree on the value of Peer Assessment. Think for a second about two of the groups you cite as the ones who should be responsible for telling us which are the "good" schools and which are the "not-as-good" schools:
1. Research funding groups
2. Various academic groups that hand out awards known to almost no one outside the academic world (and probably based on highly obscure criteria or perhaps no criteria at all) and which reward behavior that has nothing to do with educating students
Huh??</p>
<p>Frankly, I question whether ANY academics should be entrusted with making this judgment as so much of their energy and focus and recognition is on non-student related affairs. What good is a high PA score (driven by research activities awards primarily in the life sciences and engineering) to me if I am a student in history, in English, in business, in a language, etc? Or vice versa, why is a school without an engineering school marked down vs schools with similar objective data profiles (eg, Boston College, Wake Forest)? </p>
<p>The PA is a flawed, flawed number and even you cannot be sure that your description of what it means is seen the same way by other academics all across the country. And as for your comment about the "podunk" universities, those schools have the same vote in the PA process as the President of U Wisconsin or the Provost at Harvard or the Dean of Admission at Yale?<br>
So, on the one hand you sanction and applaud their efforts as part of the PA process and then give them the back of your hand with condescension about the value of their grad school recommendations. Can't you see the inconsistency in this???</p>
<p>What would I offer as an alternative? How about asking the other stakeholders in the college environment-the students, the parents/families, the alumni, and the recruiters. I am very confident that if the same power were given to these groups that is presently given to the Presidents/Provosts/Deans of Admission at over 1000 colleges, then the impact would be huge and mostly positive. Most importantly, the changes and the accountability that would result would go to the benefit of the STUDENT. And isn't that why colleges exist in the first place?</p>
<p>Do I have the opportunity to get a great education at any of the top 50 schools?
Am I more likely to get a better eduction at the school ranked 35th compared to the school ranked 50th?</p>
<p>And I mean "ME". Am I?</p>
<p>"More information is always better than less in the field of education since most of it is wrong anyway"</p>
<p>Yes. What we need is more wrong information. ;)</p>
<p>interesting paper on the subject of worldwide rankings -- the first writtten by the (former?) managing ed of USNews. While somewhat self-serving, he does discuss in great detail critic's viewpoints and the evolution of the rankings (the first was a marketing gimmick to sell magazines - duh!).</p>
<p>Well, a few schools boycotting the rankings will not do anything...when schools like Yale and Princeton start refusing to fill out the forms, that's when the rankings will fall apart.</p>
<p>Actually hawkette, I work in the fast paced world of commercial real estate finance with deals that have reached up to 1 Billion US bucks. Next time you are in Vegas take a look at the Trump Hotel/Condo project. Worked on that one. It may be one of the few to pencil out. </p>
<p>The President of Podunk U is likely to be a graduate of a major university and have worked at any number of better schools before landing the top job at Podunk. Also remember only people in the same Carnegie Group vote in that group so it would have to be a somewhat major PhD granting school to vote on the other Research Schools.</p>
<p>I also recommend the third paper in the publication linked by bluebayou. It's particularly good at showing the costs of the rankings to student college access, choice, and educational opportunity. It's a healthy corrective to the idea that more information is value-free and is always better; rankings like USNews are just not a benign source of valuable information for prospective students--they shape the world of higher education in ways that have negative consequences.</p>
<p>Perhaps the flight to quality is not a bad thing. Maybe some schools were exposed as the mediocre places they are despite a well known private label.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, thanks for the link.</p>
<p>dstark:</p>
<p>you are welcome, but I see that I cross-posted with asterikea (#39)</p>
<p>Bluebayou, that's how life is. You don't have to be first. You just have to be noticed. :)</p>
<p>Asterikea, thanks for the link too. And all the other ones you have posted on this board.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, a few schools boycotting the rankings will not do anything...when schools like Yale and Princeton start refusing to fill out the forms, that's when the rankings will fall apart.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Only if that leads to declining revenue to USNWR. My guess is that it wouldn't matter at all. Yale and Princeton are completely irrelevant to 99.2% of the parents helping their kids wend their way through the applications process.</p>
<p>"I agree with the idea that peer assessment should be a completely separate rank, because it is the only one that lets parents and students know where the school ranks academically...which, after all, is what we should care about most."</p>
<p>YES! I don't think people realize that peer assessment is the single most important part of the ranking. It reflects how universities view the academics of other institutions, which has an enormous impact on graduate/professional school admission as well as on-campus recruitment. Harvard Law is more likely to accept a Princeton grad over a Podunk U grad with the same GPA and LSATs because of what Harvard thinks about a Princeton education. Selectivity, SAT scores, HS GPA and rank -- even student to faculty ratios -- are secondary to the kind of students a college produces. People here have written that WUSTL's rank (just one example) would go sky-high if peer assessment were removed, and that it isn't fair to keep this school "down" in the rankings. The fact is, if it isn't known for producing students of the caliber of, say, Stanford, then it has no right to claim a higher spot. It may accept students that could have (and perhaps did) get into Stanford, but unless the end result is the same, then it cannot be considered "as good as." Peer assessments are made by those who know higher education and its graduates.</p>
<p>As a parent, I don't care as much about the entry stats for students as much as I do about the end result. Yes, greater selectivity usually creates a more engaged student body and thus improves the level of academics in the classroom, but it does not necessarily make it so.</p>
<p>Its interesting to see how schools complain when they are not highly ranked. I have yet to see a top ranked school complain. I have yet to see a nationally/internationally ranked school to complain. The US nEws is a game in which there are losers (badly ranked schools) and winners (top ranked schools) the losers always tend to complain cause nobody likes losing.</p>