Culture Question: H College VS H Grad Schools

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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Does Harvard’s graduate schools have the same atmosphere that its college does? This coming from a student who was accepted EA but is considering turning it down because I am most interested in H for its grad schools and pretty put off by what I’ve heard Harvard College is like in terms of its atmosphere + the lack of transparency between admin and students (apparently it’s really bureaucratic?)…

I guess, I’m telling myself I can go somewhere else for college, be happy, and still turn around and get what I was looking for out of Harvard down the road. Does anyone have any input on this?

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@WooTheDay‌,

“I guess, I’m telling myself I can go somewhere else for college, be happy, and still turn around and get what I was looking for out of Harvard down the road.”

You can certainly be happy elsewhere, and if you’re good, come back to Harvard for grad school. In fact, if the ultimate goal is Harvard grad school, in some fields, it would be better not to go there undergrad, as many graduate programs don’t like to take students from their undergraduate programs.

All that being said, I’m not sure what you think Harvard undergrad is like. Perhaps you can sketch out your impressions, and folks can give you an idea of how close those impressions might be to reality.

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What does this mean? The grad students I knew at H were there for the dept./program and not there because it was H. As far as atmosphere there is a difference between a professional school such as Law, where you are in your own campus, and Grad School such as a Ph.D. in English where you take classes in the Yard. Close contact with faculty will vary as well depending on school and program.

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@notjoe There are grad schools that don’t take students from their undergraduate programs?! Which ones? I had no idea!

@snarlatron That’s exactly what I meant. I thought that was self-evident, but apparently not. If I was just blindly pursuing Harvard for Harvard I’d take my EA acceptance and move right along. Instead, I’m concerned about what I’ve heard, namely:

  • Harvard students are obsessed with one another's pedigree, e.g. 'Where did your parents go to school?'
  • Finals Clubs are male exclusive? And racist? What decade are we in? :S
  • "... The BUREAUCRACY at Harvard is painful. Where MIT offices routinely stretched deadlines and fudged class limits, Harvard would announce 'too late!' if you SNEEZED the wrong way. Harvard offers fine instruction in the classes themselves, but I really don't like the attitude."

What draws me to Harvard are the faculty it has in its Law school, Medical school, and Mathematics departments. I’m unsure of exactly what I want to do, so my interests may shift in the next few years. All I know is nearly all of Harvard’s graduate schools are ranked in the top 5. If I was at Harvard College, I’d want to be able to take classes there and access professors but I’m getting the sense that I’d be better off at Stanford, which has equally distinguished graduate schools, but FAR less red tape. (This is pending an acceptance from Stanford though, and given it’s acceptance rate RD is even worse than Harvard’s, I’m not holding my breath. Ahhhhh.) Yale’s my other favorite.

I really don’t want to spend four years jumping through the same hoops I did in high school, so I’m doing a lot of research before I decide to confirm anywhere.

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While that might have been true twenty years ago, in 2015 MORE students are now on financial aid than are paying full-fare – which means, hundreds of students are attending Harvard because it’s less expensive than a state school. Consequently there are fewer student’s obsessed with pedigree, as most come from families that have made a prudent financial decision that comes with a top brand name.

Although significantly newer than their male counterparts—not to mention with smaller endowments, Harvard has five female final clubs: The Bee, Isis, Pleiades , Sablière, La Vie

Yup. I can’t argue with you there.

Great. Now, let it go. As an undergraduate, although you can take courses in different grad schools, the majority of your time (80%+) is going to be spent in undergrad classrooms. It’s going to the same at Yale, and I suspect at Stanford too.

Maybe you should have applied to Brown. Seriously, any college you go to – even Brown with it’s open curriculum – will have their specific set of hoops you have to jump through. I don’t think it’s possible to avoid them in college, so you best get over this one as well.

Here’s a real world example from my son at Yale. At the end of last semester – his first semester of senior year – his advisor told him that in order to graduate, he had to take a required intro course for his major that he had someone skipped over. Although my son has taken 500-level courses (grad courses) in his major, he had to add a 6th class this semester to his roster of a basic 101 course in his major so he could graduate. Sounds insane, right? Well, it is. His advisor thinks so, the dean of the college thinks so . . . but rules are rules, and hoops are hoops.

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@WooTheDay,

Many grad schools prefer not to take students from their own undergrad programs. My older son is a classics concentrator. If he applies to Harvard for grad school, he will be at a modest disadvantage compared to students with similar accomplishments from other schools. My younger son is a math concentrator. The math department at Harvard is almost militant about not accepting Harvard undergrads to their grad program.

Top-tier schools want to mix it up. They want folks with a variety of academic experiences.

“Pedigrees” - I don’t think anyone has ever asked either of my sons where I or my wife went to college.

Final clubs - Most folks don’t join them, and don’t seem to miss them. I guess the folks who join have a good time with them, but most folks manage without them. Final clubs are not Harvard-sanctioned, and thus don’t have to be equal-opportunity organizations. That said, the various final clubs, although all-male, are ethnically and racially diverse.

Bureaucracy - Probably not much worse than the typical large university with 20,000 students. As for the attitude of “rules are rules,” my older son has found significant flexibility within the rules, and although one must follow form, it doesn’t usually get in the way of function.

“I really don’t want to spend four years jumping through the same hoops I did in high school,…”

This has been one of the joys for my younger son, whose high school experience was greatly constrained by his school’s unwillingness to allow him to take advanced math courses. At Harvard, if he can do the work, he can take the course. He’s having a lot of fun. Like a kid in the candy store.

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@WooTheDay, I sure hope that you didn’t hide your contempt for many aspects of H from the admissions committee.

I found Harvard to be a somewhat bureaucratic place with a lot of egos, having gone there for law school. I find it odd to be focused on liking the law school faculty; they are superstars, but as an undergrad who is cross-registering in their classes, you’ll be fortunate to get the time of day from them.

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In my Grad program at H there was not a single student from HYPSM - Most were from LACs or State Flagships. University of Michigan, Ohio State (!), Hendrix, UVA, Oberlin, Knox, B.U., etc. and one place I have never heard of in Tennessee. This was in the 90s so it may be different now but this was my experience.

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@snarlatron, in my grad program at H, Harvard College not only was by far the largest “feeder” school (with Duke #2, I think), but Harvard College applicants even were subjected to lower GPA requirements.

@WooTheDay, it’s not wise to turn down H for college and plan to go there for grad school. Life happens as you’re making plans, and it’s not like you can plan to be admitted to HBS, HMS or HLS anyhow and get in; maybe you will and maybe you won’t.

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@HappyAlumnus‌ I don’t hate Harvard. I’m sure there are not-so-great parts to Stanford and Yale just as there are to Harvard, but their pros/cons are in different places. It just so happens Harvard is (potentially) weaker in the areas that are really important to me. You might be a happy alum but there’s no guaranteeing I would be as well. I gotta do my research (as I’m sure you did before you went).

It’s true, I can’t plan to be accepted at any of Harvard’s grad schools (even if I was at Harvard College), but I can make decisions that will help increase my chances later on. If I’m unhappy at Harvard College and don’t perform as well as I could have at Stanford, Stanford undergrad would offer a better chance of me getting into HLS or HMS.

Ultimately, I’m more concerned about having a world class education (meaning the resources + a welcoming college experience that motivates me to take advantage of those resources) than I am about having Harvard on my resume. Absolutely nobody would reject someone for having Stanford or Yale on their CV as opposed to Harvard anyway (unless maybe Stanford or Yale rejected them first. Hahahaha)

@notjoe‌ Thank you for the info about grad school admissions. For someone who is really interested in graduate-level study, I am pretty uninformed. This was good to know. Also, I know finals clubs don’t need to be equal-opportunity, but it makes me wonder what it says about certain parts of the student body that just because it isn’t required, it isn’t practiced. I certainly don’t think it’s important just because it’s legal…

@gibby‌ Thank you! Now I’m kind of kicking myself for not applying to Brown. I did apply to Amherst because of it’s open curriculum, but I’m not a fan of its location. :confused: Could you ask your son if in his graduate level classes he felt comfortable connecting with his professors/contributing to research even as an undergrad?

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@WooTheDay,

“Also, I know finals clubs don’t need to be equal-opportunity, but it makes me wonder what it says about certain parts of the student body that just because it isn’t required, it isn’t practiced. I certainly don’t think it’s important just because it’s legal…”

As I mentioned, the final (singular, not plural) clubs are ethnically and racially diverse. But they are men’s clubs. Do you think there is no place for all-male and all-female social organizations in our society? What happened to the idea of freedom of association? Diversity?

Also, keep in mind - these clubs have no official standing with Harvard precisely because they exclude women.

And if you find the arrangement truly repugnant, that private clubs with no ties to the university, itself, organize themselves by sex, try not to judge the 80% of the community on the behavior of the 20% that disagrees with you.

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@notjoe I’m not trying to judge the whole of Harvard based on the existence of final clubs. That’s precisely why I said, “certain parts of the student body” and not the student body as a whole. Also, no, I don’t agree that there should be a place for all-male social organizations in patriarchal societies. I’ve done a lot of Sociology classes which is largely why I feel this way.

My concern is just how much influence, if any, they have on overall campus culture. Just the fact that final clubs have come up in conversation nearly every time I’ve mentioned Harvard has to say something, right? :confused:

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“My concern is just how much influence, if any, they have on overall campus culture. Just the fact that final clubs have come up in conversation nearly every time I’ve mentioned Harvard has to say something, right?”

I have two sons at Harvard. I don’t remember the last time we talked about final clubs. It’s a big deal to a few people, and a non-existent deal to the rest. I remember discussing it with my older son when he was a freshman (he was punched for a club, had a very nice time going to their event, didn’t make it to the second round, didn’t think he’d join even if accepted).

I suspect final clubs may come up in conversation with folks when you discuss Harvard with them because you bring them up.

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@notjoe‌ “I suspect final clubs may come up in conversation with folks when you discuss Harvard with them because you bring them up.” I know so little about them I didn’t even know they were final clubs as opposed to finals clubs as of… two comments ago? I had to Google a script of The Social Network just now because I was so that sure it was finals. whoops. And I actually try to avoid mentioning I got in EA at all because what could have been a 30-second conversation turns into something entirely when I do.

All that said, I’m glad it to hear it’s not as big of a phenomenon on campus as I + other people I’ve spoken to perceive(d) it to be. Sorry if all my questions are upsetting you, I don’t mean to belittle Harvard and may end up there myself. I’m just doing my research. If I’m going to commit to a place and (for the first time in my life) have to pay for my education, I better enjoy it.

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what do you want to major in as an undergrad that can help us respond better.

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@florida26 Math, PoliSci or Pre-med. All over the map.

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@WooTheDay, I don’t think that your reasons are well thought-out.

First, HLS at least gives a GPA “boost” to applicants from Harvard College, meaning that someone who comes from Harvard College can get in with a lower GPA than someone from Stanford. Plus, being at Harvard for undergrad, with the opportunity to network with grad school students and the like, and cross-register for classes in the grad schools, would be helpful, to at least a small extent, in conveying knowledge to you about those grad schools and how to get in and whether or not they’re the right places for you. So I don’t think that planning to go elsewhere, in expectations of a higher GPA elsewhere that will help ease grad school admissions, is wise on that front.

Second, who says that being happy at a college correlates with, or causes, a higher GPA? I absolutely detested college (elsewhere) and was completely miserable. Yet I ended up almost first in my class. I loved H and was very happy there, but I ended up in the middle of the class, at best. Good grades come from knowing the material.

I think that you should go elsewhere, though. You seem to have a laundry list of “reasons to dislike Harvard”. Fine; go to Stanford or Yale.

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@WooTheDay‌, I think your conceptions about Harvard undergrad are largely misconceptions. As a Harvard alum and Harvard parent:

  1. I have never heard that Harvard students are obsessed about pedigree (and have no idea where that came from).
  2. The 90% of students who are not members of Final Clubs tend to ignore them - they have no impact on daily life.
  3. Harvard has a bureaucracy that can be annoying at times, but ultimately one can navigate through it and find ways to do pretty much whatever you want to do. I have another son at a different Ivy League school, and the bureaucracy there is no better or worse.

As for law schools, given the choice, I’d take Yale Law School or Stanford Law School ahead of Harvard Law School. But I don’t think you should even be thinking about law schools or grad schools in making your choice of college. You can get into top law schools and grad schools from any of Harvard, Yale or Stanford. You should be choosing your college based on where you think you’ll have the best experience for the next four years. Live in the moment, not where you might be four years from now.

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@WooTheDay,

It isn’t necessary for you to say, “final clubs” to cause the topic to come up in conversation. I truly suspect that there is something that you’re saying to have all these people mention them. Perhaps you start talking about your interest in sociology or political science, and you betray your perspectives on “patriarchy,” and this triggers folks to think about the clubs. Perhaps you mention something about feminism or some other topic that causes folks’ minds to go to the topic. You may be completely unaware of what you’re doing to cause folks to raise the topic with you.

I say this because, well, I’ve chatted more about final clubs with you on this thread more than I’ve discussed the topic with everyone else in the world with whom the topic has ever come up. Which, admittedly, is a small number of people.

At this point, I echo @HappyAlumnus. You seem to be searching for reasons not to go to Harvard. Rejecting Harvard because some students would like to participate in activities of which you don’t approve seems rather a reach to me.

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@WooTheDay:

Yes, my son felt comfortable connecting with his professors in class, ditto with the grad students. He did mention that he never really knew how he was doing in the grad classes class until 3/4’s of the way through the term, as everyone’s papers were handed back with comments, but no grades. He chalked it up to one of the differences between undergraduate classes and graduate classes. In terms of contributing to the professor’s research; no that is something that is more for grad students, not undergrads. However, my son did get a very well know graduate school superstar professor at Yale to act as his mentor and advisor for his thesis project. That’s probably because my son’s thesis nicely dovetails with the professors main area of study and is interested in the results.

In terms of final clubs, here’s what I’ve heard from my daughter. Final clubs host off-campus parties where underage students can drink. As soon as a student turns 21, they are able to legally go to bars, clubs and liquor stores. So, unless a student is from a monied background and is interested in becoming a member of a final club, it’s more of a freshman and sophomore thing.

That said, there is a difference between what men and women experience. If you are a freshman or sophomore boy, you are not getting in to most final clubs. Ever. That’s because most final clubs, which are male-only members, have plenty of junior and senior men who are members . . . and they don’t want more men at the party. So, most Harvard men never enter a final club during their four years of school. Unless you’re member of the club, it’s a party that you are not invited to.

For women, it’s decidedly mixed. If you are an attractive women, final clubs want you to attend their parties. In fact, their doors are open to you. However, if you’re not an attractive women, it’s very difficult to be admitted. My daughter who is a curt, slender and blond, had no issue attending final clubs. However many of girlfriends who were not, couldn’t get in the door. For women, it’s very much like “Studio 54” during the 70’s/80’s. The bouncers pick and choose which women they want to admit. And boys are not invited. My son, who has visited Harvard numerous times visiting his sister, was never able to gain admittance to a final club . . . even accompanied by my daughter. They would let my daughter in, but not my son. When they both turned 21, they were able to go to Cambridge bars and didn’t bother trying to go to the final clubs.