IDK where you live, but to imply that everyone who lives in a “non -coastal” area hates their lives & the choices they are offered is ridiculous. You imply that people here just don’t know how inferior their options are & how so many have no chance to get ahead or make a comfortable living. It comes off as very elitist and as someone who has only lived in “non-coastal” areas of this huge & diverse country - you do not speak for me or my life experience. There are many amazing areas to live & colleges to attend that are not on the coasts. There are tons of successful & fulfilled people that are financially comfortable & have no desire to move elsewhere. Also to imply that people who “lean on God” or that the “resolution will involve church” is a bad thing and that you can’t allow family member to babysit your kids because - “politics” shows incredibly intolerance. I for one do not see the middle of the country as a problem as you do - to each their own.
There is so much wisdom in your post and I thank you for it. Social media has been a big part of the problem. Kids will now go to more expensive (often much more) colleges because they feel the pull of prestige more than in the past I feel. They see the acceptance videos, the posts of friends in college “swag” & truly get sucked into the idea that a state school is “below” them if they worked hard & got a 4.0. Even the choice of major is affected. It is currently trendy to be a political science major, but really how many are going to eventually work at jobs that require this major? Rather than cancel debt. I feel there should be a national requirement for all Juniors in HS to take a financial literacy course, that also discusses ROI for different degrees/majors/technical training. Also that allows you to assess your personality type/skill set and help align these to future career options.
Is it trendy, or just the go-to pre-law major (even though no specific major is needed)? I.e. somewhat similar to how biology (whose graduates seem to do even worse in career surveys) is the go-to pre-med major?
When you support public higher ed properly through taxes – just as when you properly support K12 through taxes – you raise the general level of the education so that you don’t have these Grand-Canyon-scale divides between ordinary and top schools. The population is better-educated as a whole, the top students will get those competitive seats, and everyone else gets at least a reasonably good education.
The winner is the entire society.
blossom, try to build the bridges between these ideas. Just try. More flexibility in thinking, actually listening to what people are saying, and putting aside kneejerk and keyword reaction is required for complex issues.
When you see refugee immigrants, you’re seeing the tip of the iceberg. Every refugee immigrant represents a thousand people who didn’t make it here for reasons that had nothing to do with their own grit. Every refugee immigrant also knows that.
If things in the middle of the country were like Syria, yes, they would move. That’s what it takes to get people to flee. But if you’re looking at “it’s bad but not immediately lethal,” then no, it is not rational for people to uproot themselves and take on a refugee’s level of risk. You’ve gone too far in comparing to Nazi Germany.
I’m glad you’ve got a good life there, but when I google “brain drain” and “Indiana” a decade’s worth of stories come up, including stories about Purdue grads bailing. But it’s not just you; it’s the whole middle of the country, with the exception of Texas, which has been pulling people in with petroleum-based industries.
I did not imply that, but I did lay out an example of how people get and stay stuck here. I’ve also lived here long enough not to be responsive to boosterism or apologetic when it flares, sorry.
Coming from a family that has moved a bit, very few are stuck in the US. It’s a mindset.
Some many not want to go elsewhere the same way in a litter of puppies some are more adventurous and others aren’t, but I wouldn’t call that stuck. I’d call that personal preferences.
I actually lived in OH for nearly 2 decades and now in IL. My D goes to Purdue but we don’t live in IN. Plenty of friends who do though and they are happy and successful.
Between my husband and I we’ve lived in NY, MA, NJ, PA, MD, NC, OH, and IL. We’ve been for sure happiest, and most successful, in the midwest.
There are stories everywhere, including people struggling on the coasts. That doesn’t mean that sweeping generalizations are correct.
We’re pretty similar. We’ve got NY, NC (separate between us), and VA, RI, FL, and PA together along with planning on snowbirding south soon, perhaps in the Caribbean. We’re still in scouting mode, which is on pause with Covid.
You do it the same way most of the rest of the world does it: you have a handful of highly selective schools, and the rest work on some form of “easy to get in, hard to stay in” model.
If your objection’s that oh no, a flood of people will want to go to college…this is a very strange objection. People wanting to get an education is generally a good thing. If your objection’s that too many poor people will want an education because now it’s suddenly affordable to them, that’s problematic all by itself.
Will you waste money when people do nothing and drop out after a year? Yes. Will it waste as much money as we currently waste when people drop out because they can’t afford to finish their degrees? I doubt it. Will it crush entire generations with debt and stop them from starting their lives? No. Will it make young people so risk-averse that they’re afraid to do what they genuinely care for and don’t start enterprises they otherwise would? No.
Step back and ask yourself these questions about K-12. Try to imagine a world in which there were no public K-12 schools. Tuition fees only.
How much of the objection here is “I don’t want to pay for other people’s kids!” If that’s in there, how much do you want doctors and other people who aren’t your kids to take care of you when you’re old and sick? How much do you want a competent government?
You’re telling your personal story, and that’s cool. And I don’t think I’ve said anywhere that everyone in the midwest is struggling or unhappy. But I’ve been watching 30 years’ worth of young people’s stories here from a place where tens of thousands of people sweep through. If what I’m saying doesn’t apply to you (and it wouldn’t; your average person here is not on CC), I don’t see any conflict with what I’m saying.
Why would admissions have to change? I see no reason for admissions to change just due to changes in who’s financing anything. No one is saying everyone will get to go to college.
I also don’t think every place needs to be free, but that’s a different issue. 27K would help whether it’s CC or Top Whatever. My goal would be to help everyone capable to have some loan free options (via CC or trade schools at a minimum), not make it free for all to go to expensive places.
So, free college sounds great on the surface. How would it actually perform though?
I can only imagine there would be a sudden increase in students going to college. Would there be consequences, larger classes, limits on students admitted, less quality education? Would more professors be needed? Where would they come from? Would colleges need to expand greatly or new colleges suddenly pop up?
If resources were limited, how could they not be initially, who would get to go to free college? Who would be excluded? What effect would this have on the broader job market? Would a BS degree suddenly become the default for most jobs? What would that do to people that choose not to attend college, are not college material or are older and have no degree? If college graduates are already having trouble finding a job would this improve that situation? What are the unintended consequences?
In other countries the cost to taxpayers increases drastically to offer free college. Is that really fair to taxpayers? Would society really benefit greatly? Many students drop out of free college, wasting money. Without having to pay, skin in the game, how motivated would students really be?
I’m sure it would work great for many but at what cost? I’d rather provide low interest loans that students could use to choose their course and pay back once they get these better jobs afforded by their college or trade school, etc degrees.
Maybe it’s because bird of a feather flock together, but I think you’re missing a lot of those tens of thousands of stories.
@Creekland, why wouldn’t everyone get to go to college if the money is provided? Obviously everyone wouldn’t but I’d bet many more would try it. I’m a big fan of trade schools and vo-tec too. Yes, there should be low interest money made available to students up to a certain amount. Perhaps that is $27,000. But in my opinion it should come with a payback expectation or at least some way to “work it off”.
My response about free school for all was to another poster. Realistically though more access to money would potentially bring in many more students. So who would be limited? What would the line be?
Well, I’m still not in favor of totally free “any” college, but don’t forget the savings those who saved for college won’t have to pay. If someone has saved up 100K themselves (or whatever), that can now be used elsewhere.
To society, I see the cost benefit coming when we take those who would have been using welfare-ish programs, perhaps for life, and becoming tax payers instead. This isn’t everyone who uses those programs, but it does include those who were capable of going to college or trade school, yet couldn’t afford it and settled for basic minimum wage jobs out of high school.
It’s another segment of society, but I’ve also had this (real) conversation with a student:
Me: “X, you’re really smart. Why aren’t you applying yourself in school? You could go places and do things.”
X: No I can’t. We don’t have the money. Besides, I can make more money dealing dope. Show me any job I can get out of high school that will give me as much as I can make on the street.
Me: But you’ll end up in jail dealing drugs. (The lad already had an ankle bracelet.)
X: So? You spend time away from home. It’s no different than a military deployment.
I’ll admit I didn’t have an answer for him - and he continued dealing drugs. He never finished high school. At one point he was in jail (once they turn 18 names are in the police blotter). I’m not sure if he still is or not. I’ve always wondered what he could have become if he’d been born into a different family.
Because a lot of kids simply don’t want to go to college even if capable. They are tired of school and are drawn to other jobs. Not all even want to finish high school if they could drop out without stigma.
I’d keep admissions standards for schools as they are. CC is open to all and might need to expand, but that’s not a bad thing.
I was thinking this the whole time I was watching that Cup Foods employee testify. That’s a bright, bright kid. I hope he’s in college.
I just tried googling his name to see if I could find out more, but he’s nowhere near the only one with his name. I gave up.