<p>I should perhaps also duplicate this in the Admissions Forum, but I thought some of you parents would have experience with how these 2 e.c.'s affect admissions chances. I ask because we have various friends whose S's or D's have been heavily involved (major roles, long-time involvement) in either school journalism or speech/debate. These students & parents seem to believe that those e.c.'s in particular augment their chances for admission at high-profile colleges. Yet I notice that, where those activities are the prominent e.c.'s of the student, so far they have not fared well in admissions results, esp. for Earlies (both Ivies & non-Ivies).</p>
<p>I wonder if it just depends on how particular colleges view these e.c.'s (really <em>co</em>-curriculars, not "extra."), with some valuing them more than others do?</p>
<p>Not an earth-shaking question, just something that's been puzzling me.</p>
<p>I'm venturing a guess here but I suspect that journalism is a very common extracurricular that doesn't convey any extra excitement in an adcom's heart unless the student has won some sort of national award, published in a paying publication, or is applying specifically for a journalism program (in that case, it is a must have). </p>
<p>Speech/debate seems less common to me, but perhaps it is not that uncommon among applicants to more selective schools. Again, I suppose adcoms at the top schools are looking for major awards, etc.</p>
<p>From what I see, depending on where one lives, parents and students seem to think that certain activities will boost students into the top colleges. What ends up happening is that all of the students with elite college ambition will get involved in those activities and some of them will get into elite colleges. Why? Because all of the high end students in that area happen to be doing the same ECs.</p>
<p>When it comes to the very top colleges. there are thousands of applicants who have been editor and chief and have been debate champs at their school. Thus, those activities are not going to tip students in.</p>
<p>Now, if a student is a national debate champ or won national awards for their journalism or managed to spend the summer in a paid or unpaid internship at a professional newspaper and had the articles to demonstrate this, the student's achievements would be remarkable and might tip them in. </p>
<p>What's important to keep in mind is that only students with an incredible amount of talent and interest in an activity are going to be able to do do the high level achievements with an EC. The high level achievements in any activity or interest are what tips students in. Thus, if parents want their students to have the best chances of getting into an elite college, it would be best if the parents encouraged the students to pursue with creativity and passion the things the students are naturally interested in.</p>
<p>If those interest are offbeat or rare, so much the better. The top colleges want well rounded classes representing all sorts of interests, so the student who has pursued a rare passion has an advantage in admissions.</p>
<p>I wouldn't recommend an EC based upon what colleges will love me. I would suggest that students consider speech and debate because it give you a chance to use your research, listening, organization and presentation skills. School news papers can offer similar opportunities. These are all skills that will help students to succeed in college and life.</p>
<p>Colleges will be more interested in winners and leaders in these fields. There is an article that says they rank this higher than a football captain, but I think it depends on if you need a football captain or a debater at your school.</p>
<p>Another EC is mock trial and moot court, both of these demonstrate academic skills as well. You would want to identify yourself as the lead prosecutor versus juror in this event.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom,
I've got the book. Don't remember that section; you could refresh my memory.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Northstarmom. A couple of parents who have students with these co-curriculars believe that previous students were admitted to Ivies <em>based</em> on journalism & debate, respectively. Rather, I tend to think that the accepted stand-out students in these activities were also stand-out in classroom performance-- providing the correlation, not the "cause."</p>
<p>My D has a very common e.c. (not journalism or debate). I doubt that that e.c. was the decisive acceptance factor for her; it's just that she achieves highly in all areas that she joins - the crucial area being the academic.</p>
<p>There are many colleges (not just Ivies) that give no academic credit for h.s. journalism or debate, even when these are offered as h.s.credit classes. Were I a parent, that would be a tip-off to me that my S or D should not invest or rely too heavily on such an activity as a competitive hook for an academically rigorous & selective school.</p>
<p>I also agree that journalism involvement would clearly be more scrutinized & weighed if a journalism school or major were being sought. (In one case of previous admission, the applicant had definitely indicated a college journalism path.)</p>
<p>In the book, he discusses how easy it is to do certain ec's IN SCHOOL, and that those two in particular are very common...my Ds do so much out of school in the real worlld, I think that is better for them anyway....</p>
<p>cgm,
I think a "she" wrote "A is for..." (Michele H.) :-)</p>
<p>My Ds also do a lot outside of school. Guess that reinforces a point which I introduced above but glossed over: co-curriculars vs. extra-curriculars. (Perhaps adcomms like to see a Life outside of the h.s. campus.) </p>
<p>I also think that any co-curricular contextualized in the app can make all the difference (depending, as someone said above, on the "need" of the college). Heavy h.s. debate involvement for an intended poli sci or pre-law program might look stronger when presented coherently within the applicant's package (versus listed as an "extra").</p>
<p>A Yale professor researched and wrote about the effects of debate participation on admissions to elite colleges. Very informative, especially the paragraph below:</p>
<p>Minh A. Luong Forensics and College Admissions Rostrum November 2000 page 1
National Forensic League Rostrum | Vol. 75, Number 3 | November 2000
Forensics and College Admissions
Professor Minh A. Luong
Yale University
....
The Wall Street Journal report did specifically highlight a consistent trend -- one that forensic coaches
have known for a long time -- that dedicated participation in drama and debate has significantly increased
the success rate of college applicants at all schools which track such data. State and national award
winners have a 22% to 30% higher acceptance rate at top tier colleges and being captain of the debate
team improved an applicant's chances by more than 60% compared with the rest of the pool, according
to the report. This is significantly better than other extracurricular activities that tend to recruit from the
same pool of students as forensic teams such as school newspaper reporter (+3%), sports team captain
(+5%), class president (+5%), and band (+3%). Even without winning major awards, participation in
speech and debate develops valuable skills that colleges are seeking out and that is reflected in the above
average acceptance rate for forensic students (+4%). Colleges and universities today are looking for
critical thinkers and articulate communicators who will become active citizens and leaders of tomorrow.</p>
<p>My sons are both heavily into debate, participating at state level, and this year national level for the younger. I think debate helped in two ways: The first being that it gave them something enjoyable to do in conjunction with school, and something to be "passionate" about with regards to ECs. The second is like journalism, it hones research and writing skills, and also presentation skills. Participating in foreign and domestic extemp also forced them to be more aware of current events. Nice side effects.</p>
<p>But, debate is also a common EC, and they were no where near the top eschelon of debaters nationally. So, not a tip factor in our case, although it may have made interviewing and essays an easier task. Like athletics, not all kids will continue to debate in college, although my oldest has. Bottom line, it isn't a good EC unless you love doing it.</p>