Current Sophomore Pre-med

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
1

I got a 3.3 in my freshman year here at Vandy, but I’m sure that I want to go to medical school. I am fairly confident that I can do much better the next few years, but how much will this 3.3 set me back? For example, if I could go into my senior year with a 3.5-3.6, how would my chances at medical school look? I know about the med school acceptance information on the HPAO website, I’d just like input from students that may have gone through the same thing.

If it changes anything, I have a lot of research experience/volunteering/other extracurriculars already and don’t plan to stop any time soon.

2

Kind of depends on which medical you want to go to, but I would just focus on what you can control. If you check the records at Vandy, at least in 2014, there were around 10 kids who got into a US med school with a GPA below 3.3. So a 3.5-3.6 gives you a shot. The thing about medical school admissions is that after a screening (i.e your GPA, MCAT, and other stuff you put in your resume) you may get interview offers from some medical schools. At that point, it’s more about your experiences doing these extracurricular activities that push you forward into admission. So, essentially, even with a high GPA and MCAT score you could possible not get into medical schools. In your case, you probably will be able to get interview offers from your state school and other schools (of course with a competitive MCAT score). However, schools like Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins, and perhaps even Vanderbilt may be difficult. I will be a freshman this year at Vandy but that’s at least what my brother told me (currently in Hopkins med school).

3

The 3.3 GPA will hold you back, but only insofar as it will make you have a lower GPA when you apply, since it can be hard to pull up a lower GPA. However, schools look at trends and if you have an upward trend, lower grades freshman year are understandable. So if you got 4.0s for the rest of college and it averaged out to a ~3.8, it wouldn’t look any worse than just getting 3.8s the whole time.

As for a rule of thumb for GPA: in my experience (based on the app cycles of peers and people I know), if you can get 3.6+ and a solid MCAT (like a 32-33 or so) you have a good chance at getting into an MD school. For a top tier school it will be more like 3.8+/36+. Research/ECs are good. But not to the detriment of your GPA. If you don’t have enough study time because of your other pursuits, cut some out.

It’s definitely possible to come back from a lower freshman GPA. Adjusting to college can be really difficult, and sophomore year you have a better idea of how to deal with things. It gets even better junior and senior year. Personally, my GPA at graduation was 0.6 higher than my freshman year average, so it is definitely possible. Another thing to consider is that if you still feel like your GPA is not high enough, your app isn’t polished enough, or you’re too stressed to get everything done, you can always take a gap year or two to get your senior year grades/other stuff on the app. Gap years are super common nowadays, but younger students don’t usually know about them.

4

@fdgjfg : Seems like the MCAT threshold for top tier is a little lower than where you have it (I would say more like 34+. There are super stats sensitive schools like Stanford, WashU, and maybe JHU, but many top tier places are in the 34-36 range). The 3.8 (I would say 3.75+) is about right. Also, some seem more sensitive to course load (like Harvard seems to like more rigor based on those I’ve seen get in…so you need really strong stats, strong EC’s, and higher than normal course rigor to have any edge. National awards also appear to give an edge…like Goldwater for example).

*Most I have seen with at least 34 and 3.75 were interviewed by the very top tier schools they applied to. Some got in, some did not (honestly, once you get the interview…it is a matter of if they like you during the interview day/days or not, so you prepare as well as you can and ultimately get in where they think you fit in. Nothing is guaranteed to go well or poorly. Like the decisions vs. perception of interview performance often didn’t match for many of my friends)…much like those with higher stats. This group often did gain admission to a top 30,25, or maybe a top 20 or 2, if you go by rankings to judge quality (which may be even less sensible than it is for UG rankings given how uniform med. school curricula are, even among those fairly recently “revamping” their curriculum).

Also, if they got 4.0’s for the rest of their career, they’ll likely look better than the person making 3.8’s all of the time ( a huge upward trend appears to get many to almost overlook the freshman year), though upon a first screen of a transcript (say looking at GPA in absence of of the course load), those GPA’s are generally viewed as the same…this is certainly the case a 3.85 vs. 4.0. My understanding is that beyond 3.8-3.85, it is better to work on other things that you enjoy or would make one self more competitive. Unending padding of the GPA is unnecessary by that point. Better to secure an MCAT score matching the GPA by then, especially if coming from an elite. From what I’ve witnessed, it doesn’t appear that 4.0 is the magic number it is made out to be given the current state of medical school admissions. A lot of randomness and diminished returns in that upper-range of GPA brackets where differences often can be attributed to slight differences in course and instructor selection (I’ve seen 3.85s with an advantage before and identical students based on overall and science GPA as well MCAT have completely different outcomes, especially when applying to top tier places. Weirdly enough, once in those high brackets, it appeared that the one with more rigorous courses and an honors thesis or significant research experiences or awards, had the advantage and got into several top tiers for MD and/or MDPhD)…usually pretty telling once when the two receive similar MCATs or the lower GPA person gets higher, which is common in that range.

@somebody5159 : Just improve and ignore our talk about the top tier schools. Just aim for getting in. We (and others) will always refer to the top tier medical schools as a reference point, but realize it works nothing like UG where if you’re solid, you’ll definitely get into some top tier. Also, recognize that top tier can be greatly expanded beyond 40 or so schools for medical school because curricula are generally quite standardized, and all have stringent selection processes, so you’ll become well trained among really strong peers. Just aim to be competitive for admission somewhere in the U.S. Doctor = doctor. You will be well-needed and paid a lot lol.

5

@bernie12
You’re right in that the threshold for top tiers is probably right at about a 34. However, I’d say that’s near the bare minimum for admission for unhooked applicants. You can get in with it, but you’re usually going to need some pretty strong EC’s. For the well-rounded applicant without anything that sticks out, where the boxes have all been solidly checked but no further, I think 36 is a good marker.

I agree regarding diminishing marginal returns and ~3.8 as a good marker; I know some people who seemed to have been hurt by pumping up their GPA too high at the expense of their ec’s. I know that supposedly a rising trend can negate bad freshmen year grades, but I have always been a bit skeptical as to how significant a boost they can give. Looking at a site like mdapps.com, stats for accepted students seem to adhere pretty closely to published averages, so I’m unsure of how much leeway admissions committees are really willing to give. You’re also right about super-elites like Harvard looking into course selection and other minutiae pretty deeply.

Agreed on the point about rankings as well. Rankings really don’t matter so much for MD schools. The only advantages that top schools confer is the potential of marginally better residency placement (although its often argued that top schools accept the most motivated students, who would match well regardless of where they went), and more research oriented and innovative curricula (like Duke’s open third year which is often used for research, or Harvard’s research heavy HST option) if the individual is interested in academic medicine.

6

@fdgjfg : They all get interviewed though…the 36 won’t push the 36 person over the top after the interview. They still need something to discuss (and yes, many people without EC’s that “stand out” actually have very important and interesting EC’s that are marketable and interesting to discuss of a lower profile). The folks with 34s I refer to were generally Jewish or Asian (they had no hooks). One specifically had 34 and 3.7 flat and was interviewed everywhere he applied and he had some cool EC’s, but ultimately ones common for my school and common among solid performers in his major (neuroscience).

That HST option…very interesting (I saw some of the courses for it through MIT Open Courseware…very neat and are also taught at the UG level there). For some reason, that only seems popular (among the elite schools) among students coming from other Ivies (specifically top Ivies). I had a friend at Columbia flat out tell me that students specifically aimed for that (she cited it as one indication that the students are overly competitive there). The friends I knew on that academic level (as in had high stats and very rigorous courses inside and outside the major) were less likely to consider that and much more likely to go for MDPhD. But these were chemistry majors (or chemistry and biology or Neuro double majors) because chemistry is big at my school. I guess it may depend on how prominent physics (and especially opps. to indulge in life science physics, biophysics, and computational/quantitative biology courses is at a school and how many pre-healths major in or indulge in physics or math at high levels and of course, know about the program (I imagine most pre-meds are not told about such options that combine medicine with physics and math unless they are in BME for example). Also, schools like Princeton, NU, Yale, and Harvard have kind of a leg up because the pre-med classes (especially biology) have a more integrated science approach in the first place so I imagine such a program will naturally favor those students.

7

Just want to second the comment someone made about an upward trend in your GPA. If you get a 3.3 freshman year, then get like a 3.7+ for the next two years the 3.3 is not going to affect you as much. Be sure to mention it and explain why you struggled. Getting a good MCAT will further lessen the impact of the freshman year GPA

That said, my freshman year my of my senior friends had like a 3.4 but she made it into med school. I think she counted as an URM though (hard to tell tbh) and the med school wasn’t the greatest, but really any med school is good enough

@bernie12 @fdgjfg How hard is it to get a 36 on the MCAT (maybe what’s the ACT equivalent?). I’m going to start studying soon but I remember when I took the ACT I had to take it twice to get a score that “matched” my GPA as my initial score was a couple points too low. A lot of it was not ability to answer the question, but learning to work under the time limit as well as learning the tricks that caused you to make silly mistakes

Anyway everyone has recommended that people should only take the MCAT once so this time I feel like I don’t have that extra chance to get a feel for the exam like with the ACT

8

@Suffer
It’s definitely not a super easy feat, since it’s a 94th percentile score. It’s hard to compare to the ACT, they’re way different tests and you approach them in a completely different manner. The MCAT relies a lot more heavily on the strength of your content knowledge (although it also heavily stresses critical thinking and test taking skills), so knowing facts is important, whereas the ACT is less content based. You also take the MCAT a lot more seriously and don’t usually take it randomly without studying.

I guess if I was forced to compare it with the ACT, maybe a 36 would be like a 34 ACT for college admissions? It’s a good score, you can apply to top tiers and know that your test scores aren’t holding you back. But it’s not a godly/unheard of score that makes your app either. Smart kids get 36’s relatively frequently. Higher scores start to get more rare. As far as comparison of sheer effort to achieve a 36: not even in the same ballpark as the ACT. As far as ACT score predicting MCAT score, I don’t know how correlated they are. I know kids with mediocre ACTs who pulled awesome MCATs, and vice versa. I think the MCAT relies a lot more on work ethic and preparation than the ACT. If there was a single skill that was well correlated with MCAT success, I would probably guess something like critical reading skills on the SAT.

I wouldn’t worry too much about it. As long as your prepare well, and give yourself enough time, you shouldn’t have to retake. Ideally, set a few months aside to do nothing but study. You can take it during the school year if you give yourself enough time. In your preparation, you would ideally take between 5-10 full practice tests in test like conditions, so you should have plenty of time to get a feel for it. In my experience, the kids who were unsatisfied with their score were always the ones who tried to study while busy with something else, or cram it into winter break or something. The kids who gave themselves maximum time were satisfied because even if they didn’t get a ridiculous score, they knew they left it all on the table and didn’t hold back. A bunch of my friends took the MCAT before me and they gave me this advice, and I was glad I listened and took a whole summer to study.

9

@Suffer : Aim for a good score, but don’t necessarily bank on a 36 (one friend who got 37, and I know many who got 37 for some reason, admits some of it was luck because it is kind of the range where missing one question will drop you a point). A lot of it will, like said, depend on the amount of prep or the types of courses you had recently. Like many of my more talented or I guess “smart” friends actually got 36-38 studying under non-ideal conditions and in less time than many (maybe a a month or less) and could get away with doing that because their science courses, whether it was biology, neuro, or chemistry had a heavy emphasis on problem solving (as in higher level problem solving, they got used to dealing with scenarios that they had not been exposed to in class and just kind of formulating a solution based on content knowledge) that many STEM classes may not have (I’ve shown you some of the content of these courses before and these were also folks who did honors thesis, but took more than the 1 required graduate level course…sometimes taking them both in and out of their field of STEM)…and also were generally heavier on reading and data analysis than many more typical STEM classes. This means that they had strong content knowledge and that they were used to the MCAT’s style of testing, despite the MCAT being MC and their courses’ exams being short answer. They also tended to take more rigorous non-STEM courses just for kicks so were more in “reading mode” by time they took the test. That is the more “lucky” or “I can afford to take such classes and still manage to maintain my GPA” route, but most of getting 33-34+ is just flat out hard work.

I’ve read things suggesting that ACT does somewhat correlate with MCAT and Step 1 scores…but of course it isn’t that great.

If you haven’t had butt-loads of the types of STEM (or even non-STEM courses) I described, you’ll simply need to get as much practice with questions as possible. You won’t be able to transition as quickly as the students I mention (who aren’t but so common), but most pre-healths, even those with great MCAT scores actually fall in the “took standard level STEM courses, which were rigorous enough” in terms of content exposure, but didn’t really emphasize the skills needed for the MCAT to go beyond that content knowledge and be able to deal with those curveball questions or topics that initially appear more advanced than stuff you’ve covered either a) prepping for the MCAT or b) from the courses you took. Those skills have to be built with most folks (at many schools, usually only physics instructors are uniformly throwing curveballs or making folks improvise or learn to overlook extraneous information that appears important on first sight…many chem and biol instructors are very standard). You need that plus the skills to read quickly and efficiently.Just practice your behind off…seriously. Do like whatever you did if you took any of the more problem based biology courses. Instead of constantly re-reading the content, you likely took whatever practice exams, worksheets, or assigned problems and went over them over and over again…I’m not saying it will make a test like MCAT as predictable as an SAT, but it will just eventually teach you how to get through seemingly “weird” or overly long passages without panicking. The key is to prepare for the unpredictability as well as the predictability (whereas I feel SAT or ACT, was mainly just getting all the problem types and types of scenarios down)

Also, as for the admissions, I’ve known many non-URMs who got into med. school in the 3.4-3.6 range and half-way decent ones at that, but often these people did solidly on the MCAT (33+) and were smart about how they applied. Many of them also had strong course loads that made them a little more marketable when coupled to the strong MCAT score (basically, they proved that their more rigorous courses helped them learn content knowledge and how to think). Of course they also had solid EC’s (that’s honestly a given).

10

Thanks guys!

Also @fdgjfg what was your/some of your friends’ study timelines? Did you start in your sophomore year summer?

11

@Suffer

Just some random examples of general timelines:
Me: started studying about mid-may or so, took it in late August. Junior summer.
A friend who did well: started studying in late may, took it in mid August. Sophomore summer.
Another friend: studied off and on for about a year, starting in January. Studied hard over the following winter break, and took it in mid January. Junior-senior year.
We all got greater than or equal to a 36, so there are some different ways of doing it to get the same result.

Some other friends took it but only studied for a month and a half in the summer. They didn’t do as well as they wanted. Another person studied over fall semester and winter break and took it in January. They didn’t do as well as they wanted either. These people as well as my other friend recommended that I take a longer time to study, like a full summer.

As for specifics: I did an online class with Kaplan. I’m not sure it was worth it, but it can provide some structure if you are willing to follow it. (I ended up not really liking how they structured it so I didn’t really follow it, but that was more personal preference/learning style. Following it strictly would probably be fine.) Friend 1 also did Kaplan and followed it more closely. Friend 2 was more freeform since he was studying during the school year and working during the summer so he just kind of studied the books and took practice tests when he felt like it.

In general, there are a few rules of thumb for scheduling. I guess I would design a schedule in two main phases. Start out heavy on the content review, but still doing practice, and slowly phase out the content review and replace it with more practice. In the weeks leading up to the test you should be doing pretty much entirely practice and reviewing your answers. The other structuring principle is that you probably want to take 5-10 full length tests, spaced about a week apart on the weekends (if studying over a summer. If you’re doing it during the school year you might space things out more). The full lengths should be at the end of the studying schedule. As you get near the end you can do half lengths or question packs during the week, and only briefly review some concepts you might be having trouble with. If you want a more detailed schedule you can go on SDN and do one of theirs, or the kaplan/PR like I mentioned above. I personally preferred a more open schedule so I could be flexible and change it based on my needs, but everyone is different.

I wouldn’t recommend studying it over sophomore summer if you were planning on taking it at the end of junior summer. If you’re going to study full time junior summer anyway, you’ll have plenty of time to study then. And without the pressure of a test coming up, the studying that you do so far out will probably be pretty low quality and you won’t retain much. If you want to do something to help yourself far out from the test, read science journal articles and get good at it. And take biochem and learn it really really well. On the other hand, If you aren’t taking a full summer to only study, or are taking it some time during the school year, then it might be worth it to start way early and chip away at it slowly over time.

12

@fdgjfg, just wanting to be clear on the timeline, when you said you took the exam in late August, Junior summer. Is that the summer after you completed your junior year or before your junior year?

13

@4beardolls

Summer after I finished junior year. I wouldn’t recommend taking it any earlier than that unless the person is a super genius, because it can be hard to get through all the pre-reqs required by the new MCAT by then.

14

I’m also a pre-med sophomore at Vanderbilt. I think they recommend getting up to a 3.5 by the time you apply then you should be good for most medical schools, excluding top 20 ish

15

Most students improve their GPA’s after freshman year by .1-.3 points. You survived the high risk freshman year. If Your ACT/SAT were good enough to get into Vandy so you should be OK with the MCAT as long as you set aside 6-8 weeks and prep like it’s a full time job.

The top med schools admission rates are half of the acceptance rate of Harvard undergrad (1.5 %vs 3.0%). So it’s a bonus to get in but don’t plan on it.

What’s your home state? Some are more competitive than others. A 3.5 with a solid MCAT will work for most states but is borderline or low in others.

Where do you want to go to med school? Some love research, others look for service backgrounds. Some regional state schools will overlook a borderline GPA if your career goal is to become a primary care doc in an underserved part of their state.

Keep up the EC’s that show your interest in healthcare, service, leadership, & research.

Good Luck.

16

@bud123 : Seems the SAT/ACT don’t correlate as well as one would expect. They actually correlate well with UG GPA assuming a standard pre-health course-load and nothing unusually challenging or unusually soft (Kind of makes sense because those folks with high GPAs in normal classes or solid GPAs in challenging courses already have the content foundation but must just learn to use the content knowledge at higher levels for the MCAT. The second group with the challenging courses may have even less of an adjustment, but will ultimately be hurt in the admissions process if the GPA is below like 3.6-3.7). It’s kind of a different animal (it is basically designed to beat those who are only good at such exams as SAT/ACT…those folks will have to step it up or flat out retrain themselves). It is also is very different from the type of STEM exams most folks take in college, especially multiple choice tests, which even at great schools, tend to lean more toward testing lower level (like recall, understanding, and basic applications) cognitive skills. Good SAT/ACT takers have a better chance of doing well, but it isn’t that predictive. Course selection and ECs can play a large role as well. On the new MCAT, being in a research lab supposedly gives a bump to students because they are used to analyzing data and dealing with more niche and messy situations, and just experimental design period. Being involved in it or any projects that involve analysis of data can make up for courses that don’t emphasize such critical thinking/analysis skills as much. You can always practice your way to success, but it must be under very ideal conditions to do it in the time frame you describe.

Top med. schools: depending on what you want to do, likely not as useful as going to a top undergraduate program in your field. Simply getting into a decent one will result in excellent outcomes. I feel that elite undergraduate programs amplify differences between those who attend and those who don’t because students attending them likely engage many more parts of the university and can easily benefit from all of it.

Most professional schools keep students fairly confined to that unit. Also, medical schools seem to have fairly uniform standards and curricula (mainly, because there is accountability. It’s called Step 1 and 2 lol) whereas UG institutions don’t. So the bonus of attending a very elite med. school is questionable unless you’re very into research (a HUGE chunk of the ranking and reason for their elite status). Residency programs…now that is different but placement there is likely more sensitive to scores on standardized exams than med. school admissions.

Conveniently, 3.5 and solid MCAT = “hi, we want to interview you” to many schools, and interestingly enough, if applying out of one’s state (maybe not many public U med. schools in one’s state?), it may be better to apply to private schools, despite the cost of them being astronomical. It is probably more likely (especially if it isn’t among the “top” research med. schools) in terms of admissions.

17

somebody, I am not really informed re premed prep strategy. But I do know top students at Duke undergrad who went to good med schools–one went to Duke, the other to Vandy Med. Both of these acquaintenances chose to take at least one course in the summer so they could really hyperfocus. This is an expensive plan but it paid off for both of them. Other summers they did research on campus. I think one took Physics in a summer and another took Organic that way. Summer school does mean tuition and room and board. Sometimes you can get your undergrad program to approve certain colleges and you can live at home to save the room and board $. I recall that Duke accepted Northwestern’s summer Physics. I recall that a Wake Forest premed hopeful was turned down on his first summer school while living at home plan until he chose a program deemed comparable by his adivsors to being equal to the level of challenge in Wake Forest’s science courses (where Work Forest does earn its nickname). Anyway, take care of yourself and work the plans to your best advantages. hope you make it to your goal! Lots of Vandy freshman who are brave enough to walk right into science and math heavy courses can’t hit As first year. I admire your attitude.

18

@Faline2 : At Vanderbilt, I imagine someone staying for summer courses can just stay off campus which is likely cheaper?

The summer thing, likely depends on major. Many of the top students who I knew took pre-health science courses only did so because they were in majors that were demanding in terms of number of courses and the recommended pre-reqs to their courses. Most used almost all summers for research and would just take heavier courseloads during the year and manage to do well, but then again, at least half of the top students I knew were the more academically ambitious types so did not see much of a risk in taking several challenging courses at once (basically going far beyond pre-health recommendations in coursework) while also holding up EC’s and research. These were very talented folks who would gain placement to really good med. schools for MD only or were aiming for MDPhD programs. Interestingly enough, I mentor a student who didn’t start off strong freshman year, but made so much headway last year (sophomore year), that they are in Goldwater territory. He just simply learned to manage his time better and was clearly more interested in his science and math courses in general. Getting his behind kicked freshman year was a wake-up call for him. He was valedictorian at his HS so was over-confident and merely expected A’s if he just put in effort, but he was taking teachers who wanted him to go above and beyond in his studying. Learning how to deal with these types of teachers is what put him on top sophomore year. If the OP can have more confidence and willingness to do so, he can turn things around. The student I just mentioned is at Emory, but there is another person who posted maybe once on here, who also did below his expectations at Vanderbilt his first year, but REALLY turned it around. Is a senior with a pretty competitive GPA and an excellent MCAT score.

One thing he clearly figured out is that he did better in pre-health (and non) STEM courses that were less oriented toward memorization and algorithmic problem solving and thus happened to hit all the teachers who stressed higher levels of problem solving (This person went to a STEM HS where they trained for those sorts of courses, and lesser so content heavy courses) so he primarily stuck to things like physics, econ, and chemistry (the latter two he majored in) and knew to avoid as many of the biology courses there as he could. The OP may want to figure out if it is merely the studying that is the problem or if it is at least partially a mismatch in learning vs. teaching and testing style. Can be a combo of both, but the phenomenon of some students preferring the teachers that a normal STEM student would consider as “harder because they make you apply stuff” is very real, especially at selective institutions.

@somebody5159 : Did you struggle some because you had a hard time adjusting or did you not care for how the courses were taught? If the latter, have you selected your courses and instructors more carefully this year?

19

I agree summers must be used wisely and strategically. Use summers to enhance areas of weakness on your CV. You could:

  1. Take summer classes to boost your GPA and/or knock out time consuming classes like orgo or physics.
  2. Get involved in service/volunteer work. Med schools want service oriented people.
  3. Get involved in a research project. Attend department research meetings. Learn how to write, review papers, abstracts, and posters, etc…
  4. Show interest in health care. IMHO working as a scribe in an ER is the best exposure you can get and an excellent educational opportunity. Shadow doc’s. Take a BLS class, ride with EMS, volunteer in a free clinic, etc…
  5. Prep for the MCAT. You know what they call pre-meds that take the Kaplan course?..Doctor.