<p>The mid and top tier regional firms ARE doing better, but they are STILL hurting from the economic downturn- because their clients are! Yes, there is still bankruptcy and litigation work, but many corporations are really pushing for lower fees and going over the bills with a magnifying glass. We really pushed hard at my last company for lower fees and cut back use of outside counsel a lot. The regional firms are not hiring as many lawyers- period. Fewer summer clerks, fewer offers to those clerks… There are simply not hundreds of openings at these firms to absorb all the state school grads and top tier school grads who are coming out of law school. Texas, Michigan, Virginia- these are top law schools and are also state schools. Hiring goes deeper into the classes than many state schools, but there are still many grads without jobs. I’m still curious why UConn is such an exception.</p>
<p>MWC:</p>
<p>I think nepop in an earlier post highlighted some of the unique elements of the CT law market:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The CT legal is quite small and concentrated in a few cities. There are VERY FEW OOS grads practicing in the state compared to states like NY, Virginia or California. Very few Yale grads practice in state or even take the CT bar. It used to be possible to take the CT bar and NY bar at the same time but no longer. Outside of Stamford you don’t see any NY law grads. </p></li>
<li><p>UConn is located in the state capital and MOST law jobs in the Hartford metro area go to UConn grads. Most of the Connecticut Supreme Court and state federal judges are grads from UConn. If you look up all the regional and national firms with offices in Hartford, well over 50% of the partners are UConn grads. Same thing with large corporations headquartered or major operations in the Hartford area. Their entire legal departments from general counsel down are UConn law grads: The Hartford, Pratt & Whitney, Travelers, United Technologies, MetLife, Cigna, Pfizer. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I think this mall geographically concentrated market provides a strong support base to UConn grads. They are certainly not immune to the recession but the service industry in the state has been doing fairly well, relative to the rest of the country. Fairfield County was always humming and the state needs to function. I just have not seen the horror stories that some of the law blogs describe really affect grads from other parts of the country. sure, they all have to work extra hard to land a job but it seems that the vast majority eventually does. Again, I graduated probably in the worst year ever and although I do not track all the graduates from that year, all those I know are employed in full time jobs, even if it took them a while to get them.</p>
<p>I’m no lawyer, but cellardweller seems to be winning the argument handily. He’s giving a balanced view. He agrees that it’s a very tough market, but points out the benefits of attending a good value law school (a state flagship), and also shows that such schools have good access to regional markets. And for CT specifically, he seems to be backing up his argument with facts (lots of them). Others are relying on generalities, and even personal attacks. He’s crushing this debate.</p>
<p>It sure does have the ring of truth.</p>
<p>
Business acumen and drive may predict success, but it’s the school and grades listed on the resume that will get you an interview. For associates, the transcript from law school is reviewed before an interview is scheduled. Without a pipeline in a particular firm, UConn students won’t be interviewed.</p>
<p>Again Zoosermom:</p>
<p>I listed earlier some of the top NYC law firms with multiple UConn grads where I have personal business contacts. (Easy to verify on Linkedin). Most major NYC law firm come to interview on the UConn campus. The pipeline may not as large as the the pipeline from top law schools, but it nevertheless exists. Access is no longer an issue.</p>
<p>cellardweller, with one exception, your list didn’t include top firms, and your numbers were very, very small.</p>
<p>He hasn’t convinced me, MisterK. UConn may be an exception, but as the article I linked to pointed out, the students there are still afraid of graduating without a job and the assistant dean agreed that many may graduate without a job. </p>
<p>Because every liberal arts major can’t go to UConn, that leaves them with all the other law schools out there where students are not graduating with jobs. I know a few unemployed and totally panicked recent law school graduates. </p>
<p>My own personal opinion is that it is absurd to think that every liberal arts major needs a law degree to be successful, or that the best path to success is a law degree. There are plenty of other graduate schools out there that lead to lucrative careers. Recommending law school to everyone without considering their talents and skills and interests is doing them a disservice.</p>
<p>I included firms that pay top salaries to associates, have hundreds of attorneys across many offices throughout the US and hire from top law schools. Call them what you want but they are certainly among the best in the respective fields. And these were not the only ones with UConn grads, just some form my personal list. If the entire list of attorneys in major firms from UConn was to be compiled it would be many pages long!</p>
<p>
Who, even at Harvard would not be worried in this environment. It is tough! BTW, the assistant dean never said most may graduate without a job. She just said they just have to work harder for it. That is plain common sense!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Who suggested that! I just stated that I don’t know of a potentially more lucrative career for liberal arts majors. For all those that want to spend their money on graduate programs in psychology or the humanities, good luck!</p>
<p>Law, like medicine is a profession and it is also a vocation. If you don’t want to counsel others or have poor writing or logic skills, law is probably not for you. Having discovered my affinity for law late in my career, I believe it is extraordinarily fulfilling. Where else can I tell a CEO that he is full of cr*p and have him pay me handsomely for it?</p>
<p>I just want to interject that not all law students want the “glamorous” job at a Wall Street type firm. Some were more inspired by Atticus Finch (public defender) than by big dollars in big firms. Some, like me, quickly tired of being on the bottom of a pyramid scheme - the way large firms used to work in back in the 80’s anyway - and went into to public service where we could actually try cases, first chair, early in our careers. Some, believe it or not, actually wanted to help people rather than serve corporations, which - despite what our Supreme Court thinks - are not actual people. While corporations need top legal talent too, serving them is not what all law students aspire to.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the prospects for a new lawyer to obtain a paying public sector job are now slim as well, and the benefits for new public sector employees are likely to be substantially reduced going forward.</p>
<p>I’m happy for anyone to go to law school, as long as they don’t take on a lot of debt and as long as they really want to, or think they want to, practice law. I do go a little crazy when people borrow money to go to law school, all the while saying they really don’t want to practice. They just think it’s a good degree to have.</p>
<p>One of the attorneys I know well has just bounced from one public interest job (lobbyist for state tobacco free coalition where I believe she earned about $50K) to a public defender position, where I believe she will earn a similar salary. She’s been out of law school for quite a few years. Another went from a lobbyist at different public health firms–that same coalition to American Cancer to AARP to being a legislative aide where he is extremely over-qualified. Don’t think it ever got a 6-figure salary or anywhere near it at any of these jobs & he’s practiced law for decades. Public interest jobs in our state are few & far between and the pay is generally VERY low.</p>
<p>Sometimes, money is not the only consideration as to whether or not to take a job. Granted, it is more of consideration when coming out of law school with huge debt. Other considerations may include altruism and experience. Also, public sector jobs like D.A., public defender, City attorney, attorney general, county counsel, etc. used to pay substantially more than $50k for experienced attorneys, though starting salaries can be dismal depending on the location.</p>
<p>It’s important to do your research so you have a REALISTIC idea of how much common salaries are in the area you plan to live in. The salaries I quoted @ $50K are FOR experienced attorneys, unfortunately. Of course, there are substantial variations in salary, but that is part of the reality in my state and area.</p>
<p>^^^Do you have any suggestions about how to go about doing this research to get a realistic idea about common saleries?</p>
<p>What area does the individual expect to live in? The government attorney salaries should be public information and should be obtainable without too much work–an individual could even call and ask the attorney general’s office, prosecutor, public defender, etc. That could provide SOME baseline. You can also check the classified ads in the area where the person lives, etc.</p>
<p>nalp.org is a site that will provide you with an abundance of information on all things law-related.</p>
<p>Thanks HImom my S is a Junior and has wanted to be a prosecutor for several years. At this point he is not tied to living in any particular location but it would be good for him to do some of the research you suggested in locations that are appealing to him when he is home for break. As it stands now I think his GPA is strong enough to get into a Tier 1 law school but no telling where his LSAT will be and even if that is the best route to take. I have heard people mention that some of the top law schools are good at preparing their students for corporate law but that they do not give students the courtroom experience that will prepare them for litigation. Can anyone comment on that and what a student should consider in choosing law schools to apply to if the goal is to work in the public sector? Obviously a minimum of debt is one thing but is there anything else?</p>
<p>Does he know if he wants to be a federal prosecutor, or at the local level. If he wants to do local work, then he should go to law school near where he wants to live, if he knows. Interning or getting to know the prosecutors or states’ attorneys will mean a lot. If he wants to be a federal prosecutor (U.S. Attorney), he should go to the best school he can, within whatever financial constraints there are.</p>
<p>Many law schools have trial advocacy classes. I never took any but then became a litigator and figured it out on my own. However, that sort of thing might help someone interested in becoming a prosecutor.</p>