<p>My good friend is discouraging her son from going to law school because she has heard/read that the market currently has way more lawyers and law students than it can handle. Is this assessment true? Or once the recession is more under control, is the imbalance predicted to change?</p>
<p>A relative of mine graduated from law school in '09. He is working as a bouncer at a bar.</p>
<p>Try med school. (Do you know any unemployed doctors?)</p>
<p>Below is from a current posting in Yahoo education section entitled, Jobs That Are Hiring Now. I don’t know anything about Investopedia and I have no idea how accurate this is. Do note that the biggest increase in ads was for Paralegals, not Lawyers. Anyway, Legal top this particular list of job growth as evidenced by help wanted ads.</p>
<p>If online help wanted ads are any indication, the economic outlook is brightening.</p>
<p>Looking at Monster’s Employment Index that tracks online job demand, Investopedia singled out occupations that are hiring at the fastest rate over the past 13 months…</p>
<p>Legal Careers - Up 29 percent</p>
<p>Online job listings are up 29 percent in the legal arena from July 2009 to August 2010, according to Investopedia’s breakdown of Monster’s Employment Index. The legal industry includes everyone from paralegals to court reporters and attorneys.</p>
<p>Fast Fact: A quick search on Monster shows that paralegal listings outnumber lawyers. The U.S. Department of Labor forecasts a 28 percent bump in paralegal job openings from 2008-2018.</p>
<p>Legal Degrees:
Paralegal
Court Reporting
Legal Office Administration
Legal Studies</p>
<p>Average Salaries:
Paralegals: $46,120
Court Reporters: $49,710
Lawyers: $110,590</p>
<p>If one can get through law school with little or no debt, I’d say go for it. A law degree is valuable in lots of different fields.</p>
<p>She’s thinking he could get through with about $70,000 to $80,000 in debt at a top 25 law school. Is that considered a lot of debt for law school?</p>
<p>I’m shocked to read that report from Yahoo. I have a nephew that just graduated from Harvard Law. he feels lucky to have a job and pay in his major Wall Street firm has gone down for new hires. he has lots of friends without jobs and is watching the number of law firms shrink and the number of lawyers in the remaining ones go down.</p>
<p>Don’t get us started with the lawyer jokes…:)</p>
<p>I saw that article about “Those Hiring Now” on Yahoo today. I have no experience with hiring lawyers, but I wanted to add that you really shouldn’t gear your career around what jobs are “out there”. </p>
<p>I remember hearing there would be a teacher shortage soon, so get into education. Guess what? In our community, there are about 75-100 hopeful teachers for every job opening. What kind of shortage is that?</p>
<p>And you think medical school will have openings and do that instead? Once this insurance issue gets straightened out, no one will want to be a doctor. You won’t be able to make any money AND you’ll have terrible school debt not to mention that you’re years away from any earning power since it takes ~12+ years of schooling before you practice. (4 yrs of college, 4 yrs of med school, 2 yrs as resident, 2 yrs as intern + any extra years to become a specialist… about 2-4 yrs. Add to this that most kids don’t start med school right out of college!)</p>
<p>In the end, I’ve concluded you just have to follow your passion and it’ll work for you. If you want to be a lawyer: do it. If med school is your thing: go there. If you want to be a teacher: teach. You may never find a pre-set “career track job”, but follow the path that works for you and you’ll find your passion. </p>
<p>In other words: skip what area you think will have jobs and go for what works for you.</p>
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<p>It’s not a lot of debt if you get a job right out of school with a starting salary of $140,000. It’s a lot of debt if you’re working as a bouncer.</p>
<p>But I agree with the prior post that said to follow your passion.</p>
<p>I suspect that most of that 29% increase in legal careers is NOT in attorney positions.</p>
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<p>$70-80K (approx. $25K per year) is not a lot of debt for law school, but that’s only b/c students tend to borrow WAY more than they should. And most law grads will start closer to $50k than $140k. As for “top 25” law schools - - past the top 15, most schools have primarily regional pull (GW, UT-Austin, BU, UMin an Uiowa are all in that “top” 15-25 range).</p>
<p>University of Iowa is the school he’s most interested in because he could get in-state tuition. Additionally, the parents income is pretty low so hoping for some good financial aid.</p>
<p>The market for lawyers is complicated. Short-term, there certainly is more supply than demand at almost all levels. Businesses are being frugal with the legal services they purchase, and there aren’t a lot of big mergers & acquisitions or other giant transactions that demand a lot of lawyer time, so law firms have less work and less income and are doing less hiring. That means recent grads of even very good law schools are having a much harder time finding work. Most people think this is a short-term phenomenon, and that as business conditions improve, so will demand for legal services—and for entry-level lawyers at the top firms.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there probably is also a structural imbalance—more lawyers than we need. But that doesn’t affect all lawyers equally. Generally the top lawyers coming out of the top law schools aren’t affected all that much by the structural imbalance; they’re being hurt right now by the short-term business cycle, but that market should bounce back. What I hear from lawyer friends is that their firms didn’t hire much (if at all) last year and they may not hire much this year, even though their business is starting to pick up again and they could use some additional help—but their managing partners are being cautious with hiring plans. That could mean by as early as next year they’ll have a backlog to begin to fill. </p>
<p>But I wouldn’t advise anyone to invest in a law degree from a 3rd or 4th-tier law school, because the structural glut is going to affect that end of the market disproportionately. Those folks won’t get many of the big firm jobs, and they’ll generally find it harder to get work in government and the public interest sector as well. Many will eventually get (lower-paying) jobs with small firms; others will hang out their own shingle and try to make it as solo practitioners; and of those, some will make it, many won’t, others will limp along trying to get whatever legal work comes their way and try to combine it with other remunerative employment.</p>
<p>This is not like undergrad where there is good aid, and once he has a bachelors, he will be considered independent.</p>
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<p>Well, yes and no. Many law schools offer some need-based financial aid, and some offer substantial merit aid to the students they most want (after all, they’re in competition for the best students, not least because it affects their US News ranking). Some offer both. I believe Iowa is in the latter category.</p>
<p>And it’s not exactly true that a bachelor’s degree makes you “independent” for FA purposes. There’s a FAFSA process and an “expected family contribution” for law students just as for undergrads, though for some schools the expected family contribution is reduced or eliminated depending on the age of the student. Usually it’s possible for the student to do additional borrowing to cover the expected family contribution if the parents don’t want to pay, but that’s where student loans can really mount up.</p>
<p>400+ law schools, <130 medical schools in the US…</p>
<p>It depends on the specialty also. I do believe I’m ready that intellectual law or patent law is on the rise. I’m seeing more and more senior HR professionals picking up law degrees especially those involved in manufacturing with unions. Like any career there will be gluts of certain specialties and specialties that are falling out of favor and others where they can’t find enough people. You also see this these days with mechanical engineering tightening up and people clamoring for software engineers. It’s tough to make blanket pronouncements about fields that have areas of specialty.</p>
<p>Redroses, most law schools will NOT consider him independent for fin aid purposes simply because he has a BA. His parents’ income will count. He will be independent for FAFSA purposes, but for law students that really is more relevant to how much he’ll be able to take out in loans. Most law schools that give real fin aid–most don’t give need based fin aid–count parental income until you’re about 26-28. (It varies a bit among schools.)</p>
<p>When thinking about the amount of financial aid, think in terms of an initial annual salary that is one-half or less of the $160,000 starting salary at the nation’s top law firms. Only the very best students at a relatively small subset of law schools will garner those top jobs in any given year. Many more grads will start out at less than half that amount at a small firm or a judicial clerkship, assuming that they find a job.</p>
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<p>There are only 200 American Bar Association-accredited law schools in the U.S. The rest are sort of dubious. </p>
<p>And according to my sources there are 159 medical schools, including 133 awarding the MD degree and 29 awarding the Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) degree. Holders of the DO degree are licensed to practice medicine in most (or all?) states.</p>
<p>My son faced this decision last year and decided to put off going to law school. His take (and he tends to be pretty right about this stuff) is that you absolutely have to go to a top 15 (or so) law school and then do pretty darn well while you are there to get a good job. OR- pick the state where you want to start your career and go to the state university and do VERY well there. </p>
<p>I am seeing lots of lawyers (new grads and experienced lawyers) without jobs. Our company doesn’t hire new law grads and we get piles of unsolicited resumes and calls for help with job searches. Even a top school like Vanderbilt is having trouble placing all the grads. </p>
<p>The economy will bounce back, but there is a big backlog of lawyers out there.</p>
<p>I think law school is a good investment in that I like what it teaches you and it doesn’t mean you have to practice law. I think it is important to not come out with huge debt and NOT go to a school below a good state university. The Loyolas and DePauls, which turn out well-educated, competent lawyers, are NOT a smart choice right now.</p>