<p>Know several friends and acquaintances who ended up dropping out at the end of their 1L year because they lost their scollys and felt paying the full tuition wasn’t worth it for a second or lower tiered law school…especially when tuition is just as much as a private T-5 school. </p>
<p>Moreover, even if you remained in the top 5-10 percent and kept the scholly…most don’t cover all tuition and you may still end up being unemployed/underemployed. Knew someone who turned down admission to 2 T-25 schools to study at a 4th tier NYC area law school who is now underemployed and trying to establish a solo practice. While he had some great Profs…that doesn’t change the fact he’s regretted his choice as he’s underemployed and his future career prospects in the field look increasingly bleak.</p>
<p>Sigh. S is about to join the ranks of law students. He wants to study law, end of story, it has been his ever-growing desire for at least 4 years. He’s been out of undergrad for a year and a half now, working full time and being completely independent. He understands the situation with the economy but still wants to do it. He will have to make some tough decisions concerning finances when all the results are in, including scholarship offers. He has a number of acceptances already, so he knows that he will be going to an excellent school, the question will be, how to balance money and attraction to a particular school. Sigh.</p>
<p>Yes, the number of seats at law schools has rapidly increased over the last 20 years, and colleges are STILL starting new law schools. (Fortunately, the U. of Delaware came to their senses and decided to cancel plans to start a law school.) Definitely do not waste your time and money at a third or fourth tier law school, unless you can go very cheaply and want to do some sort of public service work with the degree. (I knew one person who was able to attend Drexel’s new law school when it first opened for free).</p>
<p>Earlier this year, there was a major news article about law schools that convince students to attend with large merit scholarships that get cancelled if you fall below a certain GPA (such as 3.2). The students don’t realize how hard it is to maintain that GPA in law school, end up losing the scholarships and end up with much more debt than they had expected. The law school knows in advance that many of their students will lose the scholarships, which they factor into their budgets.</p>
<p>Parabella, there are lots of options for law students. These never ending articles about the lack of jobs sure gets a lot of readership for the NYT, which runs at least one a week now and I imagine other papers do also. </p>
<p>My kid is in his third year in a top school, has been employed most of the time, made over 50K/yr as a paralegal before law school, so I don’t give much credence to those who boo hoo the 50K salaries. He has a mentor who has been very helpful. There are a lot of options for him after he passes the bar. His first salary isn’t his last salary. Government jobs pay less than private jobs, but government jobs have other benefits. Private salaries are well over 100K in many places in the country. Some lawyers do clerkships with judges after graduating. </p>
<p>Where I come from, 150K in loans isn’t that big of a deal if you are a competent person, (esp. with the new loan relief Obama has implemented), so I wouldn’t let the debt discourage you and him.</p>
<p>“150K in loans isn’t that big of a deal if you’re a competent person”.</p>
<p>Are you serious, parent1986?! I know plenty of my D’s friends with recent undergrad degrees–competent people, all of them–with maybe 50K in debt. They can’t find a job & are freaking out as the loans are starting to accrue. </p>
<p>My eldest D is in med school and will have well more than 150K in loans coming out. It will be her job to market herself correctly after rotations & residency, but I’m still terrified of that big nut that she’s going have to pay back once she begins practice. She is investigating the possibility of a certain amount of loan forgiveness by serving in low-income areas for a period of time. I can only hope that more of that type of deal becomes available a few years down the road, because accruing interest does not sleep…</p>
<p>And…that ‘new loan relief by Obama’ is more smoke & mirrors than anything else. Extending a government student loan payback period from 20 to 25 years only brings more high-interest money to the government.</p>
<p>I understand the Obama change to loans differently than you. You can go to the official website - can’t remember it right now. IBG?</p>
<p>And, as you added, there are loan forgiveness programs through different government and military legal programs (medical for you).</p>
<p>If a kid is going to be a high earner, sorry, I just don’t think 150K is out of the question, if it is the only way to initially finance an education. </p>
<p>Just because it is scary, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. As a Dr. your daughter will be confronted with life and death situations - she had better get used to scary.</p>
<p>Before a student comes out of law school with $150k in debt, hopefully he has run calculators to know what those payments would be on a monthly basis. To know that if he is lucky enough to get a $50k job out of school, those debt payments will still preclude buying a house, traveling, maybe even getting married. For a woman, the timing of motherhood will be impacted by that debt. As we’ve seen from many threads here, there are a lot of people and their families who won’t consider a person with that much debt as a marriage partner. If it’s all worth it, the student should go for it, but not without real understanding of what that debt actually means. </p>
<p>THere are many law firms which won’t hire JDs as paralegals, and just as many who will. A new-ish trend is hiring JDs as legal secretaries. It’s just a very different model that hasn’t fully formed yet.</p>
<p>This issue is that many law students think they will be a “high earner” but few actually end up as one. For the scores that get left on the sidelines taking out huge debt turns out to be a disastrous decision.</p>
<p>As others have stated the new loan modifications offer some help but it’s largely smoke and mirrors. “Smaller payments” is always just car salesman speak for “you’ll pay more in interest and thus owe a lot more in the long run”. </p>
<p>Yes several decades down the line there’s some prospect of forgiveness for some types of loans but if you’ve become so saddled with debt that after a few decades you need the taxpayer to foot the bill then you’ve got far bigger financial problems. (talking about mercy forgiveness not public service forgiveness)</p>
<p>Parent1986–I guess there are different versions of ‘scary’… :)</p>
<p>You are right in that ‘just because it’s scary doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it’. Until I saw & then realized that the medical profession was my D’s passion, I will admit I tried to dissuade her from going that route. Over 200K in loans over 4 years (we paid her undergrad, she has a small amount in Staffords) is a monumental sum, and med students do it all the time, like breathing. Now THAT’S scary. </p>
<p>But like you said, if that’s the only route in the means to the end, then we can only hope that there are the well-compensated jobs out there when she’s ready to practice, so she can pay those loans back in relatively short order before the interest drowns her financially.</p>
<p>Like other commenters have already stated, only a tiny minority of law school graduates get the high-paying law jobs…the vast majority end up being lucky to start out making 30-40k or if not lucky…under/unemployed. </p>
<p>From what I’ve heard from attorney colleagues and law school friends facing this issue, this has been the case even before the 2008 recession. That combined with skyrocketing law school tuition makes law school a risky proposition even if you’re going to a T-14…much less a 3rd or 4th tier school. </p>
<p>Also, contrary to popular belief, many HR people I’ve talked with and online publications dealing with law students…having a JD on your resume often narrows and even eliminates you from consideration compared to a non-JD holder. Only exceptions I know of are if you end up going to YHS…but even then…I know of several recent H law grads who are unemployed/underemployed right now.</p>
<p>Zoosermom has given me support and advice so I want to start by thanking her for all of her help.
It’s too late for my son to make the decision to attend law school, he’s already there and will be graduating in June. He is NOT at one of the “top” law schools in NYC. He has performed well there, top 10% of class, law review editor, TA for two professors, internship with Federal Court judge. He is 23 years old. He did manage to to secure some interviews with some very prestigious law firms, but has not received a job offer, which I guess comes as no big surprise after reading this thread.
So aside from all the doom and gloom, which unfortunatly is reality, does anyone have any encouraging words for me/him? The pit in my stomach grows daily…</p>
<p>@Always…I’ve been consulting to law firms, national, international, local and boutique for over 25 years.</p>
<p>Advice to your son…look outside of NY. Even those graduating from top law school, top 10%, Law Review, Federal Clerkship, etc, are not getting the jobs and salaries once assumed. Quite frankly, your son’s credentials look good for a NY firm and he should keep at it, but broaden the scope.</p>
<p>What type of law does he want to practice? Is he fluent in another language…(speaking and drafting)? </p>
<p>Look into areas that have remained stable, preferably with long-term businesses and universities. </p>
<p>@Always, NYC is a tough nut to crack, especially with two tip-top law schools (Columbia #4 and NYU #6) and a number of very respectable second tier schools (Fordham and Brooklyn) right in town - - not to mention most of the T14 schools being no more than a Amtrak ride away. </p>
<p>Still, it’s the fall semester won’t be over until next week and most 3L students don’t have jobs (the exception being those who rec’d offers after having completed a law firm summer assoc prgm) - - so don’t be too worried. I do, however, agree with Orangemom: look outside of NYC. One of my 3L interns (top 10% at one of the respectable tier-2 schools) just landed a great job in Albany. </p>
<p>It is a bit of a catch-22. If you believe that the only law schools worthy of consideration are the very few at the top of the top tier, all of which charge $45-$50K in tuition, then you may be forced to only consider jobs that will offer $150/year in compensation because you need to earn that much to pay back the loans. Anything less than that won’t be enough to live on, because of those loans, and therefore it appears as though there are no jobs. There ARE jobs. Just not a lot of them in glamorous cities, or paying $150K.</p>
<p>Always,
Has he looked into federal clerkships? It wouldn’t have to be NY, a clerkship does not require that you be licensed in that state (although the judges at my court required incoming clerks to take our state bar in July prior to the clerkship starting in September).
Most federal clerkships are two years and are both an amazing experience and a great entree for meeting local federal practitioners. Don’t forget federal magistrate judges, not as prestigious but still a great way to learn the courthouse. I was a staff attorney for a magistrate judge for 5 years and it was a life-transforming experience. I eventually joined a firm and used my courthouse experience to create a very niche expertise–local counsel for companies who had been sued in my state’s capitol (where the court was) and who did not have anyone to show them the ropes/twists to that somewhat odd court setup. I had some surprisingly large clients! It didn’t hurt that both District Judges retired during my tenure and I knew both of their replacements well enough to have called them by their first names (prior to their appointment). Also, never underestimate the power of the judge’s secretaries and bailiffs, too, they know a lot of folks!
The clerk pay is not great but not terrible. He might want to search and see if any DJs or Mag Judges anywhere in the country went to his undergrad or law school, that is often a way to at least get in the door (in my experience the good ole boy/gal network is alive and well at the federal courts). Give him my good wishes!</p>
<p>One area of law where demand far outstrips supply right now is patent law. The recently passed Patent Reform Act has created additional demand for patent attorneys and agents in a variety of fields, especially software and the life sciences. Companies ranging from Google, Facebook, Groupon and others are in a mad rush to accumulate as big a patent portfolio as possible. </p>
<p>You need at a minimum a Bachelor of Science Degree in a STEM field to qualify to pass the Patent bar. You will make more if you have a PhD, although not necessarily in software. You don’t necessarily need a JD degree to write patents although you will make more as a patent attorney as opposed to just a patent agent. Which law school you attended is totally unimportant. Your science training is the biggest factor. Starting salaries are around $80K but quickly climb over $100K with a few years experience. Highly experienced patent attorneys can easily make upwards of $300-400K. </p>
<p>As a backup you can work as Patent Examiner for the USPTO and they are on a hiring binge right now. You don’t need a JD degree (or even to pass the Patent bar) to become a Patent Examiner but it will help you stand out from the crowd.</p>
<p>I’ve been discouraging my son for years from pursuing a legal career, and am quite pleased that he has never shown any interest in doing so. His prospects for getting a good job in a location where he thinks it’s possible to live (an extremely important consideration when you’re gay), with little or no debt to pay off, will be infinitely better as a graduate student in art history than they would be as a law student.</p>
<p>We have several friends who are patent attorneys reporting that the field of patent law has also become quite saturated in the past few years, with many hopefuls chasing each job opening, although not as bad as general law.</p>
<p>Anecdote (which doesn’t count as “evidence”): my sister-in-law, a patent attorney with 15 years of experience (all biotech), was laid off in patent-rich Seattle. She now runs around getting contracts to made ends meet.</p>