Dartmouth College Ending AP Credit

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
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<p>Personally, I took an AP class in U.S. history and received 6 units in college for a 5 score. When one is under social pressures in high school (to study less perhaps and be mediocre, AP students have to push against this and succeed on their own) and perhaps facing inadequate educational background due to various factors, the AP tests are challenging. When I then took a college U.S. government class, heavily based off U.S. history, I had one of the highest if not the highest grade in the class. I feel the AP class, with the standardized national test, prepared me well for the college course well beyond my peers. I received high A’s or 100%'s on all of my essays and tests. This was despite receiving a B in the 2nd semester of the AP U.S. government high school class because I had focused more on the AP test (achieving a 5 = A) than the busy work at the end, which I felt was elementary and beneath me. In my opinion, high school classes should be shorted from the year-long versions to semesters as in college to cut out useless busy work and focus on the meat of the subject.</p>

<p>This was the only AP test I took, never-the-less, I have flourished in college and in the beginning, I would refer to this class as how I should prepare myself for exams (though, I was more focused in college than in high school due to the differing environment and worked harder than I did then as I saw it as a second chance to do even better than before). I have achieved a 4.0 so far in college and have almost completed 2 years of work = 54 units.</p>

<p>The 6 units saved me a semester of work, valuable time and money which I can use elsewhere, perhaps in higher tiered classes. At a time when the 4 year bachelor degree is often null and void and becoming 5 or 6 year degrees, the AP process is invaluable and momentous. It provides a helpful hand for the entire student population by providing rigor, cost-saving solutions, and equality.</p>

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<p>But if everyone has AP credits, they become worthless. The A stands for “advanced.” If everyone is advanced, no one is. The more people who have APs, the less valuable those credits become.</p>

<p>At any rate, the norm at Dartmouth (and schools of similar selectivity and character) is still 4 years, not 3.5, and not 6. They don’t care about accommodating the non-traditional timeline. It’s not their niche. And I understand why Dartmouth faculty don’t want to cede control of their curriculum to the College Board. They don’t have to.</p>

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<p>If the argument that the A in Advanced Placement is being ignored, perhaps we should look at the other half of the name - Placement. There is nothing in the name about credit - only placement. When students in our middle school take Algebra as 8th graders, they don’t get credit on their HS transcript - they get placement in a higher math class when they get to the high school. They still need 3 credits of math, taken while in high school, to graduate. </p>

<p>Many of the schools the do not offer credit for AP scores do still offer preferential placement, sometimes based on those same scores, or on their own placement tests. Taking an AP class enables students to place in more advanced classes. </p>

<p>Sunnyside - the 4 year degree is not becoming a 5 or 6 year degree, though perhaps with more unprepared students entering college, it is taking more students longer to earn what should be a 4-year degree. Look at the 4-year graduation rates at the most selective schools, and you will see that the vast majority are graduating in 4 years. A significant portion of those who finish in 5 years do so because they take a semester for study abroad or an internship, and their schedule doesn’t allow them to still complete their degree in 4 years (in other words, they still complete it in 8 semesters of residence).</p>

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<p>I got a 5 on the BC Calculus test, which meant I could have opted out of Calc I and II at my college. I decided to retake Calc II…and it was a snoozefest. I got an A+ without even trying. I’d say my experience in BC Calc more than prepared me for what I faced in college, but that may not be true for all AP programs- many of the kids that tested into the class due to an AB Calc score struggled mightily.</p>

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<p>All college calc courses are not equal, either. Perhaps you would not have found it a snoozefest if you had taken a more advanced Calc course.</p>

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<p>If the norm is 4 years now, with AP credits, what do they expect the norm to be without the AP credits in the coming years? 5 years, 6 years?</p>

<p>Those who go for healthcare careers often take more than 4 years to graduate for a bachelor’s due to its requirements (prerequisites and degree wise) which outweigh liberal arts degrees. If most of those students are liberal arts majors, this would make sense to have a shorter time span, but for those with more challenging majors and larger unit requirements, four years is not always the case.</p>

<p>I am simply repeating what is already known for years in the news. The typical 4 year degree is getting scarcer except for AP and liberal arts degrees. Not everything is theoretically perfect, classes are difficult to obtain as they are saturated, students change majors, prerequisites and graduation requirements change, and the cost goes up, especially with colleges not accepting AP classes, this will simply drive up already spiraling tuition costs, and push out decent public school students who cannot afford the luxury tutors, $40,000 cars, $5000 preparation class for SATs ACTs ad nauseum, or a $16,000 a year private school tuition for 4 years.</p>

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<p>I think that a lot of schools are going to be feeling a real financial squeeze in the next few years, as they already are, and are going to try to stop a number of cost cutting measures students and families have and are currently using. It used to be , in my day, that one could take off a term, take courses at the local college for less, go back in the spring and maybe do this a couple of times and save close to a year’s worth of tuition. Schools are putting a quash on that one. Also, graduating early is getting more difficult with AP credit not given, along with limitations on other school courses.</p>

<p>If Dartmouth and other schools are ending AP credit and other school credit because of concern that such students are not prepared enough to go into upper level courses or that they have not covered the material that these other courses are supposed to cover, a requrement of a departmental exam should be required for ANY student wishing to skip prerequisite courses instead of using these suspect courses as a result. They are not doing that in most cases.</p>

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<p>sunnyside77, your post reveals a lack of familiarity with the nature of Dartmouth. They do not offer vocational healthcare degrees. D is an elite liberal arts college. ALL of the undergraduate degrees they offer are “liberal arts” by definition.</p>

<p>BTW, most of D’s student body attended public school. Many of them receive generous FA. My S, for exampe, went to a public school, and never had a tutor or an SAT prep class, much less a luxury car. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Your argument may pertain to some schools, but not, as far as I can tell, to Dartmouth.</p>

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<p>I feel that this change was necessary. Dartmouth is not a “typical” college - its introductory courses are much more difficult than a typical introductory course. However, it’s important that Dartmouth students are able to skip introductory courses if they are capable of doing so. No one wants to retake elementary calculus if they’ve already done so in high school. </p>

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<p>Ha. You think that credit should be granted based on the “difficulty” of the course? Look at Physics C. It’s considered one of the most rigorous APs, but it is in no way comparable to a college equivalent (unless the teacher adds quite a bit of supplementary material to the course) and thus doesn’t deserve credit. </p>

<p>I don’t know much about Psychology, but it’s quite possible that despite being considered “easy,” Psychology is on par with a typical introductory course and so deserves credit. The same applies to English (and AP English does cover as much as a typical introductory course).</p>

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Dartmouth is a lower tiered Ivy liberal arts college <em>compared</em> to Yale or Harvard. Like all Ivies and many Northeastern colleges, there is a liberal arts emphasis, however, I know Dartmouth offers a large number of other degrees than simply liberal arts.</p>

<p>I.e., the undergraduate degrees Dartmouth offers NOT in the liberal arts:
biological chemistry, biological sciences, biomedical engineering sciences, biophysical chemistry, chemistry, earth sciences, engineering physics, engineering sciences, environmental studies, geography, mathematics, neuroscience, physics…</p>

<p>These 14 majors would count as prerequisite courses for healthcare fields, e.g., pre-med or pre-pharmacy. Students obtain these degrees while fulfilling prerequisite requirements, which certainly is more involved then solely obtaining a degree which does not require this extra work (i.e., liberal arts). It is not as challenging and four years at ANY college for liberal arts should be expected under ideal circumstances. The fact that even with numerous AP credits at Dartmouth students graduate at a four year average speaks volumes that the time it takes for a degree could increase without these available credits. </p>

<p>Further, units for degrees cannot be negotiated. Since they will not gain credit for this lower level classes, they will still need to use their time to take other classes for those credits - classes which they may not have needed or wanted to take, but need to take to fill those credits.</p>

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Did I say “vocational” healthcare degrees? No, I did not. Many healthcare professionals do not obtain said “vocational” degrees. The healthcare field is highly respected and prestigious. It is rigorous, time-consuming, and challenging - requiring extensive skill and ability. Not “vocational” at all, certainly not compared to other fields.</p>

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This was with AP credit, I am talking about how Dartmouth could become without AP credit - catering to private schools and ignoring the public’s which need this equality, lower cost, and rigor. Nevertheless, there is a high amount of ivy league students who are not lower income who pay it in full or partially. A $60K per year price - $240K for 4 years - is not exactly <em>welcoming</em> to the lower income or lower middle class even.</p>

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The need for a lower price cost, not one spinning out of control out of reach of 96% of American households, and a reasonable graduation time for a bachelors (within 4 years) does not apply? This AP credit hold will simply increase the inflation of tuition, lengthen the time of a degree unnecessarily, and gives a harmful impression to other colleges to not accept AP credits - which mostly help the lower and middle classes.</p>

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<p>I believe, for medical schools, you cannot use AP credits for the core premed requirements and must take the actual college leve course. Perhaps this has changed, but that was the case at one time at a number of medical schools. So there is good reason not to allow AP credit for some of these courses. it can protect a student.</p>

<p>But I don’t think that is the reason here. I see an ominous trend in colleges forcing students to take more of the courses at the home college, even beyond the traditional 2 years at the tail end that has traditonally been the case (which still isn’t the case when it comes to pricey junior year abroad programs where the college gets the money). Dartmouth has always been trying to fill that summer trimester, even requireing it in certain circumstances.</p>

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<p>Given Dartmouth’s existing AP policy and its own placement testing, the change is not actually as big as people here seem to think it is (good or bad), as Dartmouth was not all that generous with AP credit to begin with. In addition, (with its relatively low Pell grant student percentage) it probably has relatively few students looking to shave off a quarter to save money by using AP credit in place of free electives, and (given its selectivity) relatively few students likely to graduate late but could use AP credit to avoid graduating late.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the few students whom this may affect may choose to go elsewhere.</p>

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<p>It does offer engineering, which is not generally considered “liberal arts”.</p>

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<p>AP policy varies by medical school, but enough of them do not accept AP scores for pre-med courses that the pre-med student who applies reasonably widely (as is necessary because medical schools are generally “reach for everyone”) needs to take college courses for the pre-med requirements (although more advanced courses are accepted in lieu of beginning courses skipped with AP credit, according to the course work FAQ in the pre-med forum). It is likely that most pre-meds repeat their AP credit for the “easy A”, which is not so easy when the courses are filled with other pre-meds trying to do the same thing.</p>

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<p>Dartmouth’s “D-plan” where students are encouraged or required to skip one fall quarter and take one summer quarter is likely for load-balancing. In other words, they are likely trying to keep fall quarter from being overloaded (it is generally the heaviest-enrolled term at any college, due to early or late graduations) while using some excess capacity it has in the summer quarter. (see [D-Plan</a> Planning (Your Enrollment Pattern)](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~upperde/dplan/]D-Plan”>Home | Undergraduate Deans Office) )</p>

<p>Other schools use techniques like school’s choice spring admission for similar load-balancing goals.</p>

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<p>Sunnyside, the liberal arts include mathematics and hard sciences.
[What</a> are the Liberal Arts? - UMD CLA](<a href=“College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences | UMN Duluth”>College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences | UMN Duluth)
[What</a> Are Liberal Arts? - My College Guide](<a href=“http://mycollegeguide.org/articles/8/145/what-are-liberal-arts]What”>What Are Liberal Arts? - My College Guide)
The original liberal arts were grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. </p>

<p>The Dartmouth curriculum is designed for students to graduate in 4 years, with or without AP credit. Application of AP credit in order for a student to graduate in 4 years is only necessary if a student fails a course or for some reason needs to take time off or take a reduced workload.</p>

<p>The proliferation of AP courses is a relatively recent phenomenon. When I attended college APs were somewhat rare. A student might enter a college like Dartmouth having taken 1, 2 or possibly 3 APs but no one was taking the 8-10 you see nowadays. For instance, in 1985, a total of 205,650 students took 280,972 exams. That’s roughly 1.4 exams per kid. I don’t know how many passed and received credit but I do know that back then 4 years was the norm.</p>

<p>My school didn’t even off AP courses but I took the English AP on a whim and scored a 4. Should I have received credit for a course I didn’t take simply because I could write and reason well? In that case why not offer college credit for a high score on the SAT?</p>

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<p>Dartmouth ABET-accredited engineering degree programs are nominally 13 to 15 quarters, rather than the usual 12 quarters.</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/2012/orc/Departments-Programs-Undergraduate/Engineering-Sciences/Engineering-Science-Requirements]Dartmouth”>http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/2012/orc/Departments-Programs-Undergraduate/Engineering-Sciences/Engineering-Science-Requirements]Dartmouth</a> College - Engineering Science Requirements<a href=“see%20the%20BE%20degree%20at%20the%20bottom”>/url</a></p>

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<p>SAT subject tests cover high school level material; some colleges do offer subject credit for or placement out of remedial (from a college point of view) level courses for sufficiently high scores on them (credit units generally are not given, though).</p>

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<p>sunnyside, your post #111 reveals unfamiliarity with the definition of liberal arts, as well as a shaky grasp of the concept of “vocational” education. You seem to believe that the “liberal arts” do not include math and science, and you seem to think that “vocational” is some kind of insult, and possibly descriptive of studies such as auto repair. You are wrong on both counts.</p>

<p>You are also incorrect in your assumption that the “liberal arts” majors are necessarily “easier.” Frankly, you really do not know much about the expectations at a good school. </p>

<p>I see from your other posts that you are in, or want to be in, nursing. Nursing is a “vocational” field. So are accounting, pharmacy, and engineering. (UCB is correct in this regard, although D offers engineering in a liberal arts context.)</p>

<p>A student who wanted to gain an undergraduate credential in nursing or accounting would not apply to Dartmouth. A pre-med certainly would, many do, but a pre-med can major in anything as long as s/he takes the required pre-med courses at the college level.</p>

<p>As for your crack about a “lower” ivy: that’s pathetic.</p>

<p>Edited to add: From what you say elsewhere, you are struggling with difficult personal circumstances and doing a great job of proceeding towards your goal. Good for you. But before you put down D and mis-state the expectations it puts on its students, I think you should learn more about it. When S entered, D required that ALL entering freshmen take a writing seminar. Including students who presented multiple APs and 800s on the CR section of the SAT. MOST freshmen were required to take a writing course in addition. They set an SAT bar each year above which one was not required to take the writing course. IIRC, was 760 that year.</p>

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<p>I’m sorry, I was having problems with my keyboard and couldn’t finish editing the above. To continue, students who scored 660 or lower, also IIRC, were strongly encouraged to take a third freshman writing course. Does this give you any idea of the standard expected across the curriculum?</p>

<p>Cptofthehouse, What’s your beef with summer term? Most students at D seem to LOVE their required sophomore summer. Many choose to be there other summer terms in addition. BTW, it is not unusual for schools on the quarter system to have a fully functional summer term. The U of C certainly does, for example. And frankly, it makes sense to use the facilities year round rather than have them sitting idle. I don’t get why you think this is so awful and such a burden. (Have you ever been in Hanover during the summer? It’s idyllic.)</p>

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<p>Some selective colleges now require a 5 for AP credit, and don’t allow any AP class to count for more than 3 credits, and don’t provide credit for science labs. That seems to me to a reasonable compromise vs. a complete ban on all AP credit. Other colleges are probably overly-generous - such as allowing up to 8 credits in chemistry for a 4 on an AP test. </p>

<p>AP credits are not only impt. to save money, but also to make it easier to do a joint bachelors-master program or a dual major.</p>

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<p>As an AP teacher I realize that my students will be of various academic levels… some will be better prepared for the AP class going in. Reading through these posts I have seen that some have questioned the reason for taking an AP class if the student is not getting an AP credit. Simply put… it better prepares students for college whether they pass the AP exam or not. Obviously, a student who earned a 5 will be better prepared than a student who received a 3 but either way, they both will be better off having taken the class. </p>

<p>Both of my sons passed over a dozen AP tests. Although the university they attend did not give AP credit for some of their AP classes, we agreed that it was worth it because it was a great school. Students and parents will need to weigh their options and make a choice based on their situation.</p>