Dartmouth or Oberlin??

College Search & Selection
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<p>I still don't know where (if accepted) I would like to go. Can anyone give me insider's information about either Dartmouth or Oberlin? Any experiences? opinions? rumors? Or advice/wisdom in general?</p>

<p>I'm looking into neuroscience (or parapsychology, if offered) so I want a school that's strong in research and will make me more likely to get into grad school.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>I hear that students are most happy at Dartmouth, but that it's a more conservative and business-oriented school.</p></li>
<li><p>I hear that Oberlin offers more room for exploration, but it's a little more expensive for me and I'm not sure how well-respected its research facilities are.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Which school has a better student atmosphere? or more opportunities? or is Oberlin worth the extra money? or is Dartmouth full of "rich preps?" Does either school have a drug/alcohol problem? Any information would be appreciated! Thank you!</p>

<p>(also, any info on upenn or yale would be appreciated too).</p>

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<p>@04volcano I’m a 2010 Oberlin grad; I didn’t major in the sciences, but I have had several friends pursue consistent and ongoing neuro and biochem research starting in their first year at Oberlin. We do have more lab spaces than classroom spaces in our Science Center, and you can begin research with a professor within your first year.</p>

<p>If you’d like to read the gamut of student experience at Oberlin in general (academics, extracurricular, campus life, and more), I recommend checking out the Oberlin blogs, which are a collection of unfiltered perspectives on the Oberlin experience: [Oberlin</a> Blogs](<a href=“http://blogs.oberlin.edu/]Oberlin”>http://blogs.oberlin.edu/)</p>

<p>If you want to read more about the sciences and research at Oberlin… Chinwe Okona '13 is a neuroscience major, and she’s written some about her research experiences thus far. Zoe McLaughlin '11 has also written extensively about doing biochem research here.</p>

<p>[Oberlin</a> Blogs | Chinwe Okona '13](<a href=“http://blogs.oberlin.edu/Chinwe.shtml]Oberlin”>http://blogs.oberlin.edu/Chinwe.shtml)</p>

<p>[Oberlin</a> Blogs | Zoe McLaughlin '11](<a href=“http://blogs.oberlin.edu/Zoe.shtml]Oberlin”>http://blogs.oberlin.edu/Zoe.shtml)</p>

<p>If you have specific questions, all the bloggers receive email alerts when their posts receive comments and they love to respond to questions.</p>

<p>Hope this helps!</p>

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<p>Thank you!! The blogs are really helpful! Thanks for referring me there!</p>

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<p>As an Oberlin alum and having dozens of high school classmates who graduated from Dartmouth, the main differences which stood out to us when we were comparing notes were the following:</p>

<p>Dartmouth students tended to be much more pre-professional, pro-business/corporate, emphasize strong school spirit and sports, jock friendly, Ivy pedigree, politically apathetic with a definite right-leaning tilt, somewhat strong expectations of institutional loyalty within the student/alumni community, strong NE cultural influences. Dartmouth also runs on trimesters and from what I heard…requires one to spend a summer-term on campus during their college career. </p>

<p>Oberlin students tend to be far less pre-professional, anti-business/corporate, school spirit is not as strong and non-sports-based, jock unfriendly(Some athlete classmates have complained about this to the administration), non-Ivy pedigree which few even pay much heed, politically active with STRONG left-leaning tilt…though this has moderated since the late '90s, while most Oberlin students are loyal to their school…none felt the institution has a right to demand this loyalty…and they will revolt if the college/alumni association/board is dumb enough to do so*, strong Midwest cultural influences disdaining excessive pretentiousness/puffery which tends to be more common in their NE counterparts. Oberlin runs on semesters with a short winter-term in between where one can take courses or tackle projects/internships.</p>

<ul>
<li>Oberlin students tend to be very skeptical and wary of any institutional demands of loyalty…especially if it is the unquestioning “no dissent allowed” conformist type and/or this demand is made without the corresponding expectation that the institution prove it has earned and thus, is actually worthy of such loyalty in the first place.</li>
</ul>

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<p>If I were you I would visit, and preferably do an overnight at, finalists you are accepted to. The “types” of students at these schools is stereotypically very different, I imagine many people would not feel equally at home among the student bodies at these two schools. That is the biggest thing, to me.</p>

<p>Dartmouth is a larger school and likely offers more courses and activities. </p>

<p>You may have a preference of location. Dartmouth is near good skiing, 2 hours from Boston, 4 hours from Montreal, 5 hours from New York. Oberlin is an exurb of Cleveland.</p>

<p>There was an article about the neuroscience program in Oberlin’s alumni magazine a few years ago, evidently it’s received some recognition. However I suggest you look up the actual # of relevant courses offered in fields of likely interest in the registrar’s list of courses actually given over the last two semesters at the various schools of interest. (Do NOT use the course catalogs; these also list courses that are not currently being offered). I remember a while ago there was someone deciding between Oberlin and Northwestern for neuroscience, and I did take a look, and I was surprised at what I found.</p>

<p>"Dartmouth also runs on trimesters and from what I heard…requires one to spend a summer-term on campus during their college career. "</p>

<p>…Whereas Oberlin may require at least one wintersession term on campus, IIRC. Which is shorter, though less balmy. Not positive if absolutely required though,you should check if interested.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Excellent point. </p>

<p>IME, almost no student I knew of from each respective school would have been happy attending the other school. The mere thought of having to even consider attending Oberlin would be horrific for many Dartmouth grads/alums I’ve met…especially considering their personalities, differences in campus culture*, and political leanings/inclinations. The same could be said for most Obies I’ve met. </p>

<ul>
<li>Mainly strong sports/Greek centered campus culture vs a campus culture which marginalizes/bans them respectively.</li>
</ul>

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<p>I would not base it on the program, but with your fit on the campus, both the location and the student body. They are such totally, totally different schools! You really need to visit to decide!!</p>

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<p>Wow, thanks for all the feedback! These are some great insights! </p>

<p>Haha, I didn’t realize I picked two opposites as my top choices. I guess I’m leaning more towards Oberlin, but are Obies really that resistent to authority and unaccepting of sports? I’m guess I’m just trying to get a vibe for the diversity of opinion on each campus.</p>

<p>“…none felt the institution has a right to demand this loyalty…and they will revolt if the college/alumni association/board is dumb enough to do so”
[and]
“Mainly strong sports/Greek centered campus culture vs a campus culture which marginalizes/bans them respectively.”
-cobrat</p>

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<p>My son attended Oberlin. My impression is that if you want to do sports, you will be able to. You will not be outcast for it nor looked down on. On the other hand, it is unlikely that tons of students will come and watch you play. However, if you are playing for yourself, that shouldn’t be a problem. I also strongly suggest a visit before you decide.</p>

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<p>As an Oberlin resident and a Dartmouth grad, I’ll weigh in here…it is accurate that you have to spend a summer in Hanover if you go there, and only three fall terms are allowed - which is why I did a fall semester at Oberlin during my Dartmouth experience. Dartmouth is much more the Wall Street track (the last two Treasury Secretaries - Paulson and Tim Geithner are alums), and has been portrayed accurately in the posts regarding athletics and alumni loyalty. I found it to be a provincial New England school. Interestingly, when James Freedman became president there twenty years ago, he pushed Dartmouth to become more like Oberlin - celebrating the scholar over the jock. Alumni pushed back. The culture of frats and old boy networks and conservatism in general runs deep there, and alumni have a much bigger say in college operations than in most places. Remember, this is the school that launched conservatives such as Laura Ingraham and Dinesh d’Souza, and the Dartmouth Review. Alumni attempted to sue the Trustees when the alumni influence was lessened a few years ago. Dartmouth also has graduate schools in medicine, business and engineering, so it has a little more of a university flavor, though they accurately claim to maintain an undergraduate focus. </p>

<p>Oberlin is much more liberal, and it will launch far more PhDs than any Ivy League school (or any school, for that matter - more Obies get PhDs than anywhere else). If you want grad school, Oberlin is a great path to take - it can also help you with law, business or med school. </p>

<p>The town and the college were founded together and they have been at the front of several progressive causes - there is a book about Oberlin called “The Town that Started the Civil War.” Abolitionism and the Underground Railroad thrived in Oberlin. The Ivies went coed in the 1960s and 70s; Oberlin was coed in 1833. And became interracial in 1835. And while it is not a jock school, there are lots of opportunities to play (in front of small crowds) and enjoy sports. And it is probably worth noting that Johon Heisman (yes, that Heisman) got his coaching start at Oberlin, Moses Fleetwood Walker of Oberlin was the first African American to play major league baseball (pre-dating Jackie Robinson by over 60 years), and Oberlin remains the last school in Ohio to defeat Ohio State in football (1921). </p>

<p>I think the advice you got about visiting is good advice. Do it. Also, you asked about uPenn and Yale - both are urban schools, in very challenging neighborhoods. Both have big grad school programs. Very different dynamics. Unless you are a city kid, I think you’d find them unnerving…</p>

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<p>“…it will launch far more PhDs than any Ivy League school (or any school, for that matter - more Obies get PhDs than anywhere else).”</p>

<p>That’s incorrect. One can accurately say it is a comparatively homogeneous LAC that attracts an atypically high proportion of students interested in that path, and a comparatively high percentage subsequently achieve it. But your post made assertions regarding absolute numbers. At any given time there are more future Phds in residence on a number of other campuses. Here is where the most future Phds actually come from :</p>

<p>Undergrad schools of PhD and Doctoral Degree earners 1994 to 2003 :</p>

<p>1 University of California-Berkeley 4,470
2 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 3,134
3 Cornell University 3,033
4 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 2,931
5 University of Wisconsin-Madison 2,667
6 University of Texas at Austin 2,613
7 Harvard University 2,545
8 Pennsylvania State U, Main Campus 2,519
9 University of California-Los Angeles 2,454
10 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 2,078
11 Brigham Young University, Main Campus 2,049
12 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 1,970
13 Michigan State University 1,917
14 Stanford University 1,894
15 Yale University 1,877
16 Ohio State University, Main Campus 1,876
17 University of Florida 1,863
18 University of California-Davis 1,829
19 Texas A&M University Main Campus 1,770
20 University of Pennsylvania 1,688
21 Purdue University, Main Campus 1,654
22 University of California-San Diego 1,624
23 Rutgers the State Univ of NJ New Brunswick 1,607
24 University of Maryland at College Park 1,592
25 Princeton University 1,585
26 University of Washington - Seattle 1,580
27 Indiana University at Bloomington 1,575
28 University of Virginia, Main Campus 1,567
29 Brown University 1,554
30 University of Colorado at Boulder 1,510
31 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 1,453
32 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State Univ 1,386
33 University of Arizona 1,356
34 Duke University 1,313
35 Northwestern Univ 1,273
36 University of Massachusetts at Amherst 1,265
37 University of Chicago 1,263
38 University of California-Santa Barbara 1,251
39 University of California-Santa Cruz 1,209
40 SUNY at Buffalo 1,169
41 Iowa State University 1,164
42 Boston University 1,144
43 University of Iowa 1,138
44 Florida State University 1,110
45 Oberlin College 1,107
…
…
68 Dartmouth 817</p>

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<p>My son is currently a student at Dartmouth. I think that the comments in this thread about conservatism grossly overstate the reality. It would be more accurate to say that Dartmouth is closer to being centrist than most elite NE institutions, but the student body still leans left. Certainly it is less left than Oberlin, but Oberlin has a reputation for being one of the leftest-leaning schools in the nation. (BTW, I lean left myself, and don’t consider it to be negative in the slightest. :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>Regarding the Greek scene at Dartmouth: it is somewhat different from the stereotype. It is extremely open, for one thing. Anyone, affiliated or not, is welcome at all the houses. Yes, some of the houses tend to be associated with certain sports teams, but others aren’t sports-oriented at all. There are several coed groups, as well as sororities. At D, kids go greek who would never, ever consider doing so at most other schools. (My S is one of them.)</p>

<p>Yes, the DR spawned Dinesh d’Souza way back when, but on the other hand Shondra Rimes, the creator of Grey’s Anatomy, is also a comparatively recent alum.</p>

<p>It has been my experience with Dartmouth alums over 35 years that as a group they are unpretentious and remarkably free of ego, something that I would definitely not say about some of the other Ivies. Dartmouth enjoys a tremendous level of alumni loyalty not because it “demands” it–A ridiculous idea, for no college can get anything out of an alum that the alum does not want to give, what are they going to do, rescind the diploma? Please.–but because they apparently EARN it.</p>

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<p>Oh my, thank you for all these detailed responses! It seems that both schools are very strong, so either decision will be a good one. Phew! I guess now it comes down to particulars.</p>

<p>I’m taking your advice: I’ll try to visit Oberlin sometime in April to see firsthand what campus life is like (i.e. how “left” the students are, whether I would get bored easily, how unpopular the sports are, etc.). I still seem to like Oberlin more than Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Again, I can’t tell you how helpful each response has been; thank you very much for being so generous!</p>

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<p>To add to monydad’s idea . . . correcting for size of insitution (you’d expect mega campuses have more PhDs than smaller campuses) and concentrating on Science and Engineering:</p>

<p>Institution # of S&E PhDs/100 bachelors 9 years prior

  1. Cal Tech 35.1
  2. Harvey Mudd 24.9
  3. MIT 16.6
  4. Oberlin 8.2
  5. Dartmouth 5.7</p>

<p>[nsf.gov</a> - NCSES Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/#tab2]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/#tab2)</p>

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</p>

<p>Things must have changed dramatically since my HS classmates, friends, and colleagues attended Dartmouth just 10-20 years before. </p>

<p>For some reason, the ones who tended to be the most happiest there tended to be those who were right-leaning and politically apathetic. Friends who were even slightly center-left politically felt the campus was being far too dominated by the right-leaning frat/jock/“good old boy/girl” culture there. Those who were inclined to politically-left oriented activism recounted feeling strong disdain and sometimes, even ostracism from most of the students as it was perceived as a pastime for naive overly idealistic pollyannish types who aren’t to be taken seriously. </p>

<p>Most HS classmates who were actual lefties politically(i.e. Liberal Democrats and those to the left of them) and didn’t relish being a political gadfly for 4 years either avoided applying to Dartmouth or if they did due to parents, turned it down for more left-leaning Ivies/elite schools(i.e. Cornell, Harvard, Brown, Wesleyan, Reed, Oberlin, etc). The ones who did relish being the campus gadfly, of course, had a great time while alienating themselves from Dartmouth classmates and alums. </p>

<p>To be fair, I’ve heard Oberlin is now far less radically left than it was in the '90s when I attended…and moreso before then.</p>

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<p>Cobrat, I have had the same experience: the Dartmouth grads I’ve known were all definitely at least right-of-center. And that’s putting it politely.</p>

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<p>I strongly suggest visiting. The people on this thread are talking about a dartmouth and oberlin 10-20 years ago. Basically, they have no idea what they’re talking about.</p>

<p>See fore yaself. THESE PEOPLE HAVE AGENDAS. </p>

<p>Anyways, Oberlin’s more for the hippies and the Gays.</p>

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<p>I’m a Dartmouth grad and I would say its much more left leaning. 88% voted for Obama in the last election. Dartmouth is not the school it was 10, let alone 20 years ago. Its changed a lot. To put it in perspective in 1990 it was about 17% minority, last year’s class was 35% minority plus about 10% international.</p>

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<p>The big question is, who will those Dartmouth students who voted for Obama vote for in the upcoming election!!!</p>

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<p>Wow, listen to yourself much?</p>

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