<p>^ I'd say that was a fair assessment.</p>
<p>Slipper, I don't think there is a meaningful difference in the financial or programmatic support that students receive across the Ivies. It generally is available for any student that seeks it out. I received $7k in stipend and financial aid support for a summer I spent non-profiting in DC, and an additional $3k travel grant through Western Europe. Other friends of mine at Cornell were granted funds to travel to Turkey, China, Argentina, Antarctica, you name it.</p>
<p>I also frequently raise the question with you regarding Dartmouth's performance in the Washington Monthly's rankings, but I do not believe you have ever addressed it. Why, despite all of its fantastic resources per student and student services, does it underperform relative to its expected graduation rate? </p>
<p>That said, I don't disagree that Dartmouth spends more per student on advising and student services. The question is whether or not it is worth it from the institution's perspective. At Cornell, the philosophy has always been to "do more with less" and thus a lot more money is dedicated to recruiting transfers and community college students, etc. That's part of Cornell's mission.</p>
<p>Frankly, there is a lot of common overlap between Dartmouth and Cornell in my life, and I don't believe that the average liberal arts student is disadvantaged at one over the other. After I graduated, I found myself hanging out with a bunch of Dartmouth alums. I have been to two Dartmouth weddings and will be at two more next summer. In high school, I wrote Dartmouth's peer recommendation for my childhood best friend and frequently visited him in Hanover. And I had several friends at Cornell who had significant connections to Dartmouth (e.g. their parents worked at Dartmouth). One school is not better or worse for a liberal arts student. They are just different. </p>
<p>You often speak of investment banking and consulting placement, but I really think it boils down to two things: 1) Marginally better students at Dartmouth, on average. 2) Students who are more interested in those types of careers at Dartmouth. Certainly no student with similar stats coming out of both Dartmouth and Cornell will be at a disadvantage relative to their counterparts at the other school.</p>
<p>I also think you are understating Cornell's undergraduate focus. This can't be stressed enough: it is the most undergraduate focused among the premier, comprehensive research universities in the country. Consider the following table of Ivies ranked by ratio of undergrads to graduate students. It's pretty obvious there are two distinct tiers in the league.</p>
<pre><code> UG G Ratio
</code></pre>
<p>Brown 5821 2204 2.64
Dartmouth 4200 1700 2.47
Cornell 13510 6290 2.15
Princeton 4918 2416 2.04
Penn 9710 10103 0.96
Yale 5316 6082 0.87
Harvard 6715 12424 0.54
Columbia 6923 15730 0.44</p>
<p>
[quote]
For those looking to go into CS, Architecture, Hotel, and want to be engineers (as opposed to engineering majors who want to work in top business)I recommend Cornell over almost any Ivy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Cornell is great for engineers who want to work in top business.
According to this report:</p>
<p>Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, UBS, JP Morgan and Chase, Merryl Lynch, and Lehman Brothers are among the employers hiring the most Cornellians. Out of the 12 companies that recruit Cornell students the most, 7 are big business firms. That says something.</p>
<p>Among Operations research engineering majors companies hiring the most Operations Research and engineering students are JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Bank of America Securities, UBS, and Accenture:</p>
<p>Among CS majors, the employers hiring the most Cornell CS majors are Goldman Sachs, UBS, Credit Suisse, Bank of America, and Citibank: </p>
<p>Among Electrical and Computer Engineering (ECE) majors, employers hiring the most ECE students are Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, UBS, Bloomberg, and Merryl Lynch:</p>
<p>Cornell is a fine place for engineers who desire to work in top business. You seem to be downright misinformed about Cornell.</p>
<p>
[quote]
UG G Ratio
Brown 5821 2204 2.64
Dartmouth 4200 1700 2.47
Cornell 13510 6290 2.15
Princeton 4918 2416 2.04
Penn 9710 10103 0.96
Yale 5316 6082 0.87
Harvard 6715 12424 0.54
Columbia 6923 15730 0.44
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here is Cayuga's data in a different, possibly more readable format:</p>
<p>Percentage of Students who are undergrads:
Brown- 72.5%
Dartmouth- 71.1%
Cornell-68.2%
Princeton-67.1%
Penn-49.0%
Yale-46.6%
Harvard- 35.1%
Columbia-30.6%</p>
<p>Cornell may be large but that doesn't mean that it's not undergraduate focused. There are by far more undergrads than grads and well over 4,000 undergraduate courses offered in seven different colleges. That seems pretty undergraduate focused to me.</p>
<p>Dartmouth Nightlife = 0</p>
<p>cataxxx shut up you don't even know what you're talking about.
want to get into numbers?
cornell = 14</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a good night life. If you are into fraternities and real beer pong. But that's about it.</p>
<p>Cornell offers a much broader array of night life options.</p>
<p>"Philosophy shouldn't be too hard, I'd assume it be not the most intellectually chalengnig major out there."</p>
<p>Did you really just say that?</p>
<p>Cornell is a way better school than Dartmouth.</p>
<p>I don't know why every single student in at least the past 10 years of my high school has chosen Dartmouth over Cornell if accepted to both. There seems to be no good reasons to choose Dartmouth. What do you think they do to trick 1,100 students per year into going there?</p>
<p>The Dartmouth admins presumably lead them to believe that Tubestock is still going strong.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Cornell is a way better school than Dartmouth.</p>
<p>I don't know why every single student in at least the past 10 years of my high school has chosen Dartmouth over Cornell if accepted to both. There seems to be no good reasons to choose Dartmouth. What do you think they do to trick 1,100 students per year into going there?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Come on, we're not talking about Cornell versus Harvard, Yale, or Princeton here. Know your place. The majority of students who applied to Dartmouth in the past 10 years of my high school only applied there because it was in the Ivy League. What does it offer that you can't find at any other good, liberal arts schools? </p>
<p>Dartmouth is a good school. Choose which school you want to attend based on fit only (assuming they're about the same caliber). I for one would have hated to attend Dartmouth because of its joke of an engineering program, but if you want to study liberal arts in a small, friendly environment it may be the school for you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
small, warm environment
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know if you have been to Hanover recently, but it is anything but warm.</p>
<p>Haha yea which is why I edited to change "warm" to "friendly"</p>
<p>"I don't know why every single student in at least the past 10 years of my high school has chosen Dartmouth over Cornell if accepted to both."</p>
<p>It's kind of creepy that you keep track of records like this. Unless of course you're lying as a way to boost your ego and reaffirm your Dartmouth choice.</p>
<p>^My guidance counselor has a record of where every student got admitted to in the 10 years she has worked here (in addition to naviance). This way, when we are deciding between two schools we can consult students who have made each decision. Unfortunately, I had nobody that I was able to contact who chose Cornell over Dartmouth (I did consult just a regular Cornell student though). </p>
<p>The reason I made that post, is that I was mocking your inability to even see why someone might choose Dartmouth. It is one thing to think that Cornell is better, but another to be so full of yourselves that (other than a student look to have his/her hand held) you see no reason why someone might choose Dartmouth. It is a subtle art to objectively compare two schools for their respective merit, and identify why you think one school is better than the other. It is way more effective than simply bashing another school. </p>
<p>But fear not Cornelians! I do not blame you. Because you constantly need to defend yourselves from all the absurd flack you receive from ‘upper-tier’ ivies, your immediate reaction when placed into a comparison is to attack, and attack hard. We at Dartmouth are unlike all those elitist meany-heads. We recognize talent and virtue in all of its forms. I’m afraid all this lack of hand-holding has made some of you cold and bitter. If any of you ever make your way over to Hanover blitz me (<a href="mailto:jim@dartmouth.edu">jim@dartmouth.edu</a>) because I would be honored to hold your hand. (I’m not sure I can do much about the cold part).</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason I made that post, is that I was mocking your inability to even see why someone might choose Dartmouth. It is one thing to think that Cornell is better, but another to be so full of yourselves that (other than a student look to have his/her hand held) you see no reason why someone might choose Dartmouth. It is a subtle art to objectively compare two schools for their respective merit, and identify why you think one school is better than the other. It is way more effective than simply bashing another school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Whose inability to see why someone might choose Dartmouth? Both Cayuga and I acknowledged that Dartmouth is a fine school. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It is you who came in here and tried to defend Dartmouth (and preemptively may I add) before anything bad was said about it.</p>
<p>Your comments make you seem as though you think you go to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. News flash: as much as you would like to think you do, you don't. We never get crap like this from HYP students because they are secure about themselves. It's always the insecure Dartmouth and Penn students that feel the need to compulsively invade the Cornell forums to affirm their self-worth and propagate their misinformed opinions of Cornell.</p>
<p>You state things like identifying why one school is better than the other is more effective than bashing, yet you go on to make ridiculous anecdotal claims that can't be refuted as to why one person should choose Dartmouth over Cornell.</p>
<p>Well, in my school, since its inception in 1963, every single person who was accepted into both Cornell and Dartmouth has chosen Cornell over Dartmouth. </p>
<p>See, we can make ridiculous anecdotal claims just like you. That should not serve as a reason for one to choose a school over another.</p>
<p>Dartmoose -- </p>
<p>That's all well and good. And thanks for the invitation. </p>
<p>But where did that initial post come from? I don't think anybody else in this thread had even remotely suggested that there should be no reason why one would choose Dartmouth over Cornell. Rather, we had been having a reasonable discussion on the differences and similarities between the two schools. You know, that 'subtle art' that you speak of.</p>
<p>I also think you wrongly paint our actions as 'attacks'. I think a lot of what we do here is dispel myths and mis-characterizations about Cornell simply because it is such a large, diverse place. Where have we attacked other schools on this board? Perhaps we will make an occasional swipe at UPenn for not having a hockey team, but otherwise I think we are pretty fair and balanced about the merits of Cornell and other institutions.</p>
<p>Finally, don't you think that your own school's matriculation history might be a bit biased by the personality of the students at your school? (And I would say the fact that your high school keeps such records is plenty indication of the types of students at your high school.)</p>
<p>Suffice to say, there are plenty of students who choose Cornell over Dartmouth, in part due to academics, in part due to character of the schools. My best friend at Cornell turned down Dartmouth because she felt more comfortable with the students at Cornell. A former girlfriend turned down Dartmouth because she thought that Cornell's offerings in international relations and European studies were much stronger. And that's not to speak of the many students at Cornell that never applied to Dartmouth in the first place due to lack of fit or specific academic interest.</p>
<p>The two schools are no better or worse than each other. Just different.</p>
<p>haha, owned, dartmoose, owned. </p>
<p>"but another to be so full of yourselves " </p>
<p>...and you also said this... </p>
<p>"I don't know why every single student in at least the past 10 years of my high school has chosen Dartmouth over Cornell if accepted to both."</p>
<p>Heck, even if we are full of ourselves, at least we're self-aware. </p>
<p>"Because you constantly need to defend yourselves from all the absurd flack you receive from upper-tier ivies,"</p>
<p>who's the one on another college's forum trying to push statements that cannot be proved like "yeah, well, where I come from nobody chose your school over my school".</p>
<p>
[quote]
who's the one on another college's forum trying to push statements that cannot be proved like "yeah, well, where I come from nobody chose your school over my school".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yea, Dartmoose, as the famous Wolfgang Pauli once said- your claim is not even good enough to be wrong. If you want to engage in intelligent debate about which school is better, at least provide verifiable data or sound arguments as to why you think so. Don't provide anecdotal data or anecdotal arguments that cannot be tested or verified. Don't push data or arguments that can easily be made up.</p>
<p>Okay. We need to bring this back to focus. I thank you CayugaRed for your thoughts. I think you should know that my comments weren't really directed at you, but I didn't specify my comments either (so you would have no way of knowing). It is also important to note that I never once said that Dartmouth was better than Cornell. I'm not even sure that it is. All I said is that there are reasons to choose Dartmouth. As for judging the character of my school based on the use of naviance or similar, it is actually a really common thing to do at not just my school. We don't use it for bragging rights, we use it so you can get the opinions of both sides when comparing a school. It gives you a more balanced comparison (starting to catch on to my theme...?)</p>
<p>To brown man: Simply saying that they are both fine schools and then going on to say that Cornell is better in every way is not a balanced argument. Just because it is in your thesis does not mean that you do not have to prove it to me in your the body portion of the text. Also, there might appear to be some Dartmouth students bashing Cornell on your boards, but I wonder how you know if a student actually goes to Dartmouth? There are a lot of third party students who may say these things. Have fun spending your Saturday trying to find a single post by sybbie, slipper, rightnotleft, or biggreenjen that one-sidedly bashes Cornell. (Those are the only actual Dartmouth affiliated people on CC).</p>
<p>And trust me, students at HYP do it way more often, but I guess not as many on CC. (Their only opportunity would be in a HYP vs Cornell thread, but frankly, those are rare.)</p>
<p>So, continue on with your debate of Cornell vs. Dartmouth. I am not going to be home for the rest of the weekend, so it will be useless to address me from this point on.</p>
<p>Oh, and please don't try to blitz me. That happens to be the president's e-mail...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Simply saying that they are both fine schools and then going on to say that Cornell is better in every way is not a balanced argument.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never claimed this. What are you smoking? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Have fun spending your Saturday trying to find a single post by sybbie, slipper, rightnotleft, or biggreenjen that one-sidedly bashes Cornell.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Slipper already provided misleading information about Cornell engineering's business placement, and the quality of Cornell engineering itself on this thread itself. He even went so far as to claim that Cornell owes all of its international prestige to its grad schools(jealous much?). Look back a few pages and you will see. These guys are not as noble as you make them out to be.</p>