I’m just wondering what you guys think is a better school for studying math as an undergrad, Dartmouth or Penn (not sure if I want to do pure or applied yet). Please consider rigor, professors, research opportunities, grad school placement, job placement, and your overall opinion of the program/school. Thanks.
It depends what you want to do with your Math education. Both are challenging, rigorous schools yet they have very different strengths of their undergraduate programs.
If you’re interested in the research route than Dartmouth is better than Penn. Dartmouth, being undergraduate focused, would provide you more opportunities to work on high-level research problems, immerse yourself in university mathematics, and build close connections with Dartmouth’s math department. Dartmouth’s non-professional graduate programs tend to be pretty unremarkable, but they have stellar graduate school placement (a function of having close connections to professors and an exorbitant number of opportunities to do research). Penn’s math department is much better known on the graduate level, yet it isn’t spectacular either. If you intend to go to graduate school (for mathematics or any other subject), Dartmouth would be a better intellectual environment than Penn. Penn’s undergraduate math department would still be great, but the size of the university makes it difficult to become close with professors, get involved with mathematics research, and find mentorship for your own work.
Now, if you wanted to go into finance, either quantitative finance or some flavor of banking, both Dartmouth and Penn have their advantages. Penn has Wharton which is THE school for undergraduate business. Since you’d be an applied math / pure math major, you would not be in Wharton, although you there are ways to co-enroll between the engineering school or the college of arts and sciences with Wharton. Wharton will definitely open more doors in the finance world, but the differences in amount of job opportunities on Wall Street between Penn and Dartmouth is not significant. Dartmouth is more of a liberal arts college, hence it doesn’t have the same pre-professionalism that Penn exudes, yet Dartmouth has an incredibly strong alumni network on the East Coast. While Dartmouth is not as well known as Penn (and Wharton), Dartmouth’s alumni network on Wall Street tends to heavily favor Dartmouth alumni. According to this website http://www.bestcollegevalues.org/top-alumni-networks/, Dartmouth has the fourth strongest alumni network (and ~40% of Dartmouth graduates are in management positions). Additionally, Dartmouth has a 49% alumni giving rate (compared to Penn’s 8% rate), and according to 538, has one of the best return on investments for any college. At one point, Dartmouth had the highest mid-career salary out of any school in the country (you can find the Forbes article - interestingly enough this study happened prior to 2008 when Wall Street / American Financial Sector was still the most profitable industry). Another huge advantage of Dartmouth is its D-Plan. The D-Plan allows you to take terms off and study abroad, work on research projects, intern at companies, travel and research, etc.
If you want to go into business (Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of General Electric, was a Dartmouth Applied Mathematics major), both Penn and Dartmouth will give you about equal opportunities. Penn’s advantages in business are its urban environment, the Wharton School, its greater reputation (this is tricky - a lot of people haven’t heard of Dartmouth while most people think “Penn” refers to Penn State which is why most Whartonites say they go to “Wharton” and not “Penn”), and its pre-professional culture (which might not be so appealing for some people). Dartmouth’s advantages include its super tight-knit and loyal alumni network, undergraduate focus, and graduate school placement.
Both schools have their idiosyncracies, and they are both referred to as the “Party Schools of the Ivy League.” Dartmouth and Penn are both fraternity-centered, although Dartmouth’s frats are very inclusive and welcoming. The Dartmouth community is much homier than Penn’s, but Penn is located in a nice part of Philadelphia with strong ties to the city. Other than Greek Life at Dartmouth, skiing, hiking, outdoorsy activities, tree-hugging, etc. are popular ways to spend time. At Penn, you have nightclubs, bars, restaurants, concerts, plays, etc. Philadelphia isn’t New York, but the City of Brotherly Love still offers much more than Hanover.
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@Longclaw Thank you so much for your response; I found it very helpful. I think I’m leaning towards Dartmouth 
Both would be great places to study math, but I would give the edge to Dartmouth for both grad school (more opportunities for undergrad research and good rec letters) and job placement (Dartmouth edges out Penn CAS for Wall Street jobs).
Great posts @Longclaw and @goldenbear2020. What are your thoughts on math at Dartmouth vs. math at Williams College or other LAC strong in math? Thinking of both the grad school path and job placement.
Dartmouth offers a few advantages over Williams in fields outside of academics. In terms of academic reputation, Williams enjoys a few distinct (and I think, a little overinflated) prestige boosters that make it seem much better than its peer LACs and Dartmouth.
When thinking strictly about academia, Williams tends to have more cachet over Dartmouth (as Dartmouth’s intellectual reputation was soured by a series of sensational articles over the past few years). Given how influential college rankings are in shaping public opinion, the fact that Williams is at the top of LAC lists and at the top of Forbes (I don’t know if it’s still #1 - but Forbes has a terrible ranking system; how can you rank Stanford and MIT on the same list as Pomona and Williams?) does carry some weight. This isn’t a problem (as I will later explain), but I understand that when you’re applying for college, these “rankings” can shape you opinion.
Now all of these factors only talk about “academic reputation;” they have nothing to do with academic quality, grad school placement, and job placement. Williams has cultivated a reputation as one of the most intellectual schools in the country. Yet, reputation doesn’t accurately capture the quality of the student body and academic achievement. Speaking anecdotally, the friends I have at Williams are very intelligent, but their peers are a mixed bag. Some of them are highly intelligent and some of them are just your run-of-the-mill jocks who come from East Coast prep schools. But this is to be expected with any of these schools. Williams has a huge sports community that serves as a kind of replacement for the lack of a fraternity system (meaning the athletic houses serve as replacements for Greek houses). Dartmouth has a high proportion of athletes as well (and does surprisingly well in many Ivy League sports), although they also “enjoy” (for better or worse) a large Greek community (which is changing as of now).
In terms of overall reputation, Dartmouth has a much stronger reputation than Williams especially within business circles. Dartmouth and Tuck have greater global influence, a larger alumni network, larger financial resources, and a strong community. This is not to say that Williams is lacking; Williams has a “mafia-like” alumni network with intense devotion to the school. But, as I explained, Williams has a stronger reputation in terms of academics. It is seen as the more intellectual school (even though they are very similar in terms of the social scene - one has a Greek system and the other has a clubby athletic community).
Now to the more relevant parts of your question (I hope the above was helpful, but I know it’s kind of unrelated): Williams is smaller than Dartmouth which could have its research advantages (Williams undergrad is about half of Dartmouth, but Dartmouth has over twice the resources that Williams does so it isn’t really a big issue). In terms of graduate school placement, Williams grads pursue PhD’s much more frequently than Dartmouth grads, but Dartmouth has one of the highest business, law, and medical school acceptance rates in the country. Williams also has a very high rate of b-school, law school, and medical school placement as well; both schools will provide you with the opportunities to get into your ideal grad school.
In terms of the math program, it’s also a toss-up. Williams attracts more students focused on “research mathematics” while Dartmouth attracts more students looking to go into business and engineering (Williams doesn’t have an engineering school but they do have a program with Dartmouth where you spend 3 years at Williams getting a degree and 2 at Dartmouth getting an Engineering degree; they also do this with Columbia). Both schools have dedicated departments looking to give students tons of research opportunities and internships. Dartmouth does have a wider spread of “applied mathematics” topics (they have one of the most underrated CS departments as well as programs in financial mathematics, engineering mathematics, operations research, etc.). I’d investigate each school’s math department page for more information about course offerings, research opportunities, and faculty focus.
In terms of job placement, both schools will serve you well. Same with Amherst, Swarthmore, Middlebury, etc. Dartmouth has the bigger network, more entrepreneurial resources, more financial resources, and more managers. Dartmouth graduates also have some of the highest mid-career salaries. Williams has an equally tight-knit following. As long as you are a good student and involved in your community, both schools will prepare you for great job opportunities.
Essentially, what it comes down to is the community. Dartmouth’s curriculum and school is more unique than any other similarly esteemed institution (with the D-plan / quarter system, the tight-knit alumni network, the outstanding business school, the undergraduate focus, and the Greek life). Williams is much more intellectually driven (at least, on the surface level - my feeling is that the two are much more similar than the rankings will let us believe), smaller (hence greater interaction between people), and less preprofessional. Both schools have high percentages of prep school kids, although Dartmouth has historically been more diverse.
In all, both are great schools. Dartmouth has had a bit of an image problem recently, which Hanlon is working on improving. Williams has always been highly esteemed among those who have heard of the school. The math programs are both solid, and I don’t think finding employment will be a problem for you (even though I don’t know you, the fact that you’re thinking about it now suggests that you are likely to work hard in college). Grad school placement is kind of split, as Williams has more “research-oriented” kids while Dartmouth has the business folks. Hope this was helpful.
Definitely depends on what you plan on doing with it, and where you plan on working (city). If its Wall Street, folks bend over backwards for a Penn grad, especially out of Wharton. If not Wall Street - I don’t think one is viewed any less favorable than the other. Both are outstanding. Good luck.
These are two really great schools. There is a little bit of misinformation on this thread that I’d like to clear up. But I also want to emphasize that both Penn and Dartmouth would be outstanding places to study mathematics.
In terms of undergraduate research opportunities, Penn is definitely an outstanding choice and second to none. There is so much more research being done at Penn by virtue of it’s larger size and substantially greater funding from both private and public funds, and it is incredibly easy to become involved as an undergraduate. Penn’s Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships (CURF) connects students to professors and graduate students conducting research in the fields in which they would like to study. Consequently, research is readily accessible and professors/grad students are grateful to have the assistance of undergrads to whom they often give substantive and exciting assignments, as well as small stipends. There is a culture of mentorship at Penn that is truly exciting to experience. Additionally, because of Penn’s One University Policy, you will also be able to take classes and do research across Penn’s undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools. With the most well regarded business school in the world (Wharton) right on campus, math majors often find it easy to use their quant skills in more applied scholarly work. Students in the college are able to take on University Minors in Wharton and Engineering and College students can even add a double major with the engineering school without having to officially enroll in the Engineering school. Additionally, Penn’s graduate math program is actually top notch (ranked #17 compared to Dartmouth’s #52). That may not seem like it matters at the undergraduate level but it’s often superior graduate programs that are able to pull in the best scholars to a university. And at Penn, as a result of the One University Policy, you have the opportunity to take those advanced, graduate level math classes and do research with those incredible professors who are always looking to incorporate undergrads into their studies. Finally, because you’re in Philadelphia, there are myriad opportunities to work with a non-profit or a think tank in research related to math or to work for the city of Philadelphia, applying your mathematics research to real-world policy problems. I worked at Penn’s school of government as a research assistant on a project related to modifying the philly tax code to encourage the development of small businesses that was eventually published and presented to the city itself.
Penn’s larger student body definitely does not make it challenging to get to know peers or professors. In fact, according to US News & World Report (and each school’s own website), Penn’s student to faculty ratio is 6:1 compared to Dartmouth’s 7:1 student to faculty ratio. Class sizes at both schools will be incredibly small, even at the intro level since Penn specifically creates smaller sections of intro level courses for students who thrive in more intimate environments and larger section options for those who don’t necessarily prefer the higher level of interaction in a smaller class. Additionally (according to USNWR), Penn has a higher percentage of classes with fewer than 20 students than Dartmouth (P’s 67.4% compared to D’s 64%). Do not let Penn’s seemingly larger size scare you; it only really has an effect on the number of students you have the opportunity to meet, not the quality of those interactions or your interactions with professors and administrators. The College at Penn is a quintessential liberal arts college in the heart of a major research university. You will definitely be able to find faculty mentors for recommendations to grad school and to better your learning experience while in college.
And in terms of grad school admissions, Penn students do incredibly well. Dartmouth unfortunately does not publish comparable materials, but be sure to check out Penn’s post graduate results survey to see where Penn Math majors choose to go after graduation: http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/FINAL_REPORT_COMBINED.pdf
For the most recent graduating class, Penn math majors went onto Yale, Penn (Wharton), UC Davis, Princeton, Imperial, Duke (Fuqua), Drexel, and Columbia. Others accepted job offers at Bank of America, Citigroup, Google, Morgan Stanley, Delta Airlines, Credit Suisse, and more. And Dartmouth definitely does NOT edge out Penn CAS in terms of wall street recruitment. Penn is one of the two most highly recruited schools in the country. Because of Wharton’s presence on campus, it has the largest number of elite firms recruiting on campus of any of its peers and Penn CAS students take full advantage of the opportunities that this affords to them. Penn undergrads all share one career services office, no matter which undergrad school they’re in (college, Wharton, engineering, nursing) and they are each given an equal opportunity to do On Campus Recruiting. While many students interested in Wall Street will have self-selected into Wharton, others who chose liberal arts majors in the College are at no disadvantage when applying to these firms and they are recruited in huge numbers. It is easy to find in those career services surveys how many Penn College of Arts and Sciences students took jobs on Wall Street- I invite you to compare that data to any you can find on peer institutions.
Additionally, Penn’s social life is definitely not fraternity- and sorority-centric. At Dartmouth, about 50% of students are in Greek life (http://www.dartmouth.edu/stulife/greek-soc/cfs/faqs.html#students). At Penn, about 25% are involved in Greek life (http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/ofsl/greeklife). Student clubs are the most common form of social affiliation for students at Penn and each club (from the debate team to the rugby team) hosts its own parties and invites students from around campus. Club sponsored events greatly outnumber Greek parties and the student life revolves largely around those. That being said, Penn fraternities and sororities do host a TON of fun parties and charity events to which students are invited and at which students often have a good time. In addition to the regular clubs, restaurants and music venues in center city that students go to with great frequency, Penn fraternities will often also rent spaces for “downtowns,” or parties that happen in center city. There is a really solid mix of Greek life and other social activities but no one component could be said to be the prevailing culture at Penn. Finally, Penn isn’t known as the ‘party’ ivy as much as it’s reputation is actually that of being the “Social Ivy.” Though playboy did once rank Penn the number 1 party school in the country, so take that for what you will.
Also, Penn’s alumni giving rate is about 34% (https://www.alumnifactor.com/node/5854), not 8%-- not sure where the 8% figure in that article came from. And finally, I rarely meet people who confuse Penn with Penn State- especially professionally, I travel a TON for my job around the US and in Europe and Asia and almost everyone with whom I’ve discussed Penn has known I meant UPenn.
At the end of the day I think both schools are incredible and I often felt that if you could pick up Dartmouth and put it closer to Boston, NYC or Philly it would have been a really great fit for me. The D-Plan seems really interesting and the quaint, New England college vibe really jives with me. I think both will give you an outstanding education and incomparable professional opportunities. You cannot go wrong by choosing either one. If you have any questions about Penn, I’m happy to answer them. Going to Penn was the best decision of my life and I’m always excited to share that experience with an interested applicant.
while most people think “Penn” refers to Penn State which is why most Whartonites say they go to “Wharton” and not “Penn”
This is actually false. Nobody who matters (people in academia, top corporations, top schools) confuses Penn with Penn state. Your average joe might but then again he can’t name any ivies past Harvard. (why does his opinion matter anyway? it doesn’t) Also trust me if you work on Wall Street you will hear many people, who were in Wharton while at Penn, say that they went to Penn. What @Longclaw says here are rather stereotypical remarks that are usually perpetuated by outsiders who don’t know much about Penn. In any case most cross-admits choose Penn over Dartmouth for various reasons, but you would make a good choice either way. Go with where you think you will fit best. You can’t go wrong.