<p>wisteria: If I read the numbers correctly, more than 80% applied for aid. </p>
<p>Chicago, I believe, has historically covered the cost of tuition, but not room & board (which can be sizable). I know there is a large alumni fund raising effort underway to improve scholarships & aid. I don't know whether that will give more aid to an individual, or more individuals aid.</p>
<p>idad & bluebayou - Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that the UChicago data is not sufficient to support anything but very general conclusions. For example, I believe the data supports the general conclusion that "some students with above average family incomes attend UChicago" but not the specific conclusion "some children of very poor families attend UChicago" (even if the chart lists 29 students whose "family income" would place them in the "very poor" category.) As wisteria pointed out, there are many explanation why "reported" income might not fairly represent the family situation. </p>
<p>I have no idea what percentage of incoming students at UChicago are paying full fare, what percentage are receiving outside scholarships, what percentage come from truly disadvantaged situations, etc. But I am sure that when UChicago refuses FA to enrolled students with "family incomes" under $18,000 that it's fair to describe the family income data as "soft."</p>
<p>Here is the link to the website reporting financial aid at Harvard. It has a chart that I could not reproduce for CC. Unlike Chicago, Harvard does not provide merit aid.</p>
<p><a href="http://fao.fas.harvard.edu/fact_sheet.htm%5B/url%5D">http://fao.fas.harvard.edu/fact_sheet.htm</a></p>
<p>thanks, marite. </p>
<p>One thing I've always wondered about H is the number of National Merit winners are in each class, particularly since their chart includes 'outside' scholarships. Likely, H could probably enroll every NM winner they wanted. Perhaps its not a large number of students, but if it is, they are doing a good job of playing with statistics, IMO.</p>
<p>Bluebayou:</p>
<p>Harvard admits a very large number of NMFs but it does not give NM scholarships, so NM winners would have to get a scholarship from the NM Corporation, $2,500.</p>
<p>You are correct that outside scholarships skew the statistics as Harvard also admits a disproportionate number of Intel finalists, USA All-Stars, etc...</p>
<p>I don't know, however, how much distortion that introduces, just as I don't know how many merit aid packages Chicago gives out. Statistically, it may not be very significant (it may or may not explain the "financial aid" to students whose family income exceeds $200k).</p>
<p>understand, but that's my point. Those $2,500 winners show up in Harvard's chart, I think. If those kids are subtracted, and, take out the kids who bring scholarships from home, how many are left to which H provides money? I'm guessing its a lot less than "two-thirds"....</p>
<p>Bluebayou:</p>
<p>Hmmm...Since Harvard admits students with high stats, it has a large proportion of NM Finalists. But I don't know how many of those actually win a NM'$2,500. My S sure did not.</p>
<p>Bluebayou:
The answer to your comment may be found here:
[quote]
Two-thirds of all undergraduates receive some form of financial assistance, including outside awards.
Half receive need-based Harvard Scholarship aid, totaling over $81 million.
One fifth of the families receiving need-based scholarship assistance from Harvard have incomes above $130,000.
[/quote]
It would appear that 16% of undergraduates receive outside awards. That would include NMS, Intel, etc...</p>
<p>
[quote]
It would appear that 16% of undergraduates receive outside awards. That would include NMS, Intel, etc...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think what you meant to say is that it would appear that 16% of undergrads receive outside awards but NO Harvard scholarship money.</p>
<p>The proportion of Harvard students who receive outside awards is most likely MUCH higher than 16%, since there are surely many students who get both Harvard scholarship money AND outside awards. (Harvard gives students on financial aid a significant incentive to apply for such outside awards, since it allows students to apply outside scholarship money toward reducing the self-help portion of the package--i.e., loans and workstudy.)</p>
<p>Wisteria:</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction. What struck me in the graph is the relatively high proportion of students from families that have income of $120k and more, that is, twice the national median, who receive some aid from Harvard.</p>
<p>Mini-- I don't really get your point vis a vis California vs. Kansas. You wouldn't really expect less populous states to have the same number of applicants to college as the most populous states, would you? And you also wouldn't expect an economically disadvantaged kid in Kansas, who may be the first person in his/her family to attend college, to think "hey I'm going to Princeton" instead of thoroughly exploring local options, would you? I don't think is because of sticker price.... I think it reflects cultural norms, regional preferences, lack of access to information (i.e. Princeton could be close to free depending on the kids situation) etc. rather than an evil plot by Princeton to favor kids from CA vs. those from Kansas.</p>
<p>The largest number of outside merit scholarships in the U.S. are of the $100-$200 local Kiwanis/Rotary Club variety. Probably the largest source of total funds for outside scholarships are the Byrd Scholarships, usually around $6k for four years. These are not likely to put much in the way of a dent in the percentage of those requiring (and receiving) need-based assistance, at Harvard or anywhere else.</p>
<p>"rather than an evil plot by Princeton to favor kids from CA vs. those from Kansas."</p>
<p>I don't think there are ANY evil plots (well, maybe Hagedorn's denying entrance to students from my high school for well more than two decades counts - this, not Kansas, is where he would have found the New York sons and daughters of the policeman and neonatology nurse); the colleges do what they do, and, at a level like P., they pretty much get the class they intend to get. Hey, if I were P., I'd recruit in high-income San Francisco, too. If most students at P don't receive any need-based aid, it is because the institution likes it that way. And if 70% of those who receive aid have incomes above $100k, well, you can get two or three of those for the cost of one at $50k. And, if I were them, I can't say that I'd act any differently.</p>
<p>It's just data; you can hedge the data in various ways (the merit scholarship bit, which I don't think is particularly significant), or provide any ethical significance to it you choose. Data is data.</p>
<p>Mini, this would argue for a high proportion of financial aid to be coming from Harvard rather than from outside sources. According to that website, 1/5 of those receiving Harvard finaid (as opposed to outside aid) have family income in excess of $130k.</p>
<p>Oh, yes! Of course! Did I suggest otherwise? The only "hard" numbers are the percentage of the student body not receiving any need-based aid (52%) and Pell Grant percentage (6.8%). According to the Princeton Review (based on data supplied by Harvard), the percentage of freshman not receiving need-based aid is exactly the same as the rest of the student population, suggesting that little has changed. (I'm not quite sure why it should, though - the system they have seems to work well for them, so what possible incentive could there be to change it?)</p>
<p>If we take your definition of middle class, then it would appear that the middle class is not getting squeezed out of Harvard, if students whose families have more than $130k in income can still receive Harvard finaid even though 52% still do not receive need-based aid.</p>
<p>The data is just data. I tried to divide income classes into four: 0-40k (roughly the Pell Grant percentage); those $40-100k (the broad middle class); those $100k and above (the top quintile in income in the U.S., hardly the "middle" or even close to the middle, but still receiving aid); and those receiving no need-based aid (a minimum of $155k and above, many very far above). H. actually would have a higher percentage of those in the middle - 40k - $100k - by virtue of having a very low Pell Grant percentage (kind of the reverse of the Amherst situation, where the top group is the same as at H - though we have no idea about the top group's median family income, and the second group is likely the same.) Take the data that is known: 52% no need-based aid; 7% Pell Grants; leaves 41% for the broad middle (which, the way you define it, can be up to $200k, as long as they are receiving aid); if 70% of that remaining 41% are above $100k, that would leave roughly 12% at H in the $40-$100k income class, which is a lot bigger than at Amherst (and a lot less costly to H!) The percentages may be off a couple of points in either direction, but they are essentially correct, both by your numbers or mine.</p>
<p>I don't think many folks appreciate how rare $100+k family incomes are, even in New York City or Boston (median family income is $55k, add $10k for family of four.) In my town, a middle-class ($40k-$100), state capital town, it is very rare indeed. And, other than athletes, virtually no one gets into HYPS, even when they apply. I am not trying to argue that is a bad thing - when folks leave for these schools, or several dozen others, they almost never come back to the community (I count my own d. among them), so they represent a brain drain. I am not attempting to make any ethical judgment on how the private schools run their business (though I would like my alumni contribution, miniscule as it is, to fund lower income kids rather than those wealthier than I am. Those are the breaks!)</p>
<p>In the Silicon Valley, $100K incomes are not rare at all. That would be low for this area. But the lifestyle is equal to lifestyles at half the salary in the rest of the US. Believe me, every year the San Jose Mercury runs an article telling us just what house we could have if we lived elsewhere:).</p>
<p>Rice effectively has 0% full freight students. The endowment subsidizes the base tuition for every student by approximately 10k per year.</p>
<p>True at every school on the list (at Williams, the subsidy is $22k.) "Full-freight" is the "list price".</p>
<p>I believe it is true that schools are squeezing out the middle and lower middle class. I know a need blind college that seemed very interested in an applicant until the FAFSA was reported and then the mail stopped. This doesn't mean the school hasn't been generous with others, but I believe a family with a low efc is more likely to find success if they also qualify for a large pell grant.</p>