<p>Just saw this thread and wanted to comment. My S is graduating this year from Dartmouth. Couldn’t be happier with his choice. While he never had anything to
do with the fraternity scene, he has had a perfectly happy social life, and I can’t begin to tell you the great opportunities he has coming up next year through his hard work and being associated with this great institution!</p>
<p>Many good points have been made here lately. The issue is not just fraternities and sororities and the Greek system: it is also clubs and athletic teams and any other grouping of young people free of daily parental oversight. Is there a college/university in the country that is not trying to deal with underage drinking and unwise behaviors? I actually think that Dartmouth (for all of its administrative ineptitude in many areas) is doing a good job. Example: No activity aimed at first year members of a club sport (even something as innocuous and team-building as an early morning pancake breakfast in PJs) is permitted without advance approval from the college monitor. I don’t know what more you can ask of a college. No school stands in loco parentis. No school can guarantee that drinking won’t occur or that bad decisions won’t be made. Now, I believe there are schools where having a drop of alcohol touch your lips or being found with a member of the opposite sex in your dorm room means automatic expulsion. (I recall a very interesting book with the last 5 or 6 years where a student from another school, which might even have been an Ivy, spent a year at such. Thought I still had it on the bookshelves but can’t spot it.) That’s not Dartmouth. That’s not the Ivy League. That’s not … many other things. My daughter is a 13, so she has been in Hanover since 2009. Neither in her sorority nor in any of her other activities has she been subjected to or participated in anything like the Lohse allegations or the excerpt from a 2006 incident reproduced above. And, I can’t say enough about how much I admire the young woman that Dartmouth has helped her become.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree that safety at a frat or sorority should be a concern. However, I cannot believe that you think it would be safer for your child at Columbia or Penn…or any other urban campus. I note that the starter of this thread has not responded or commented so why don’t we just move on. Another child admitted off the wait list!</p>
<p>I was at Dimensions and do know what the “fiasco” was about (“know” in my perspective, might not be for everyone). There was this show Dartmouth had for dimensions - and it was a show that many of our hosts told us was wonderful and what made them come to Dartmouth. In this show, there were people who protested against Dartmouth for the “problems.” </p>
<p>The problems that they told us about were of sexual assault and racism (mostly). In Dimensions, talking to students, these problems were definitely there in Dartmouth.
About half of the people that I talked to were unhappy at Dartmouth their first year and were about to transfer when their friends persuaded them not to.</p>
<p>However, this sexism, racism, and classism are problems in every college.</p>
<p>While I realize that these are problems are in every college, I am not going to be a Dartmouth 17. Dartmouth has wonderful resources and professors, but the Greek system overwhelmed me when I visited, and it was in these greek systems that the “problems” prominently originated. </p>
<p>Also, from what I gather, Dartmouth does not plan to respond. In the Dartmouth’s magazine, Dartmouth just said that “The demonstration last night displayed last night portrayed that Dartmouth is a place of many voices, and that students here feel they have the freedom to express themselves.” </p>
<p>The comments to the video are also discouraging for me. YES, those protesters were wrong to ruin the show like that. HOWEVER, the comments to the Dartmouth’s article on the incident really show that Dartmouth is not going change in its racism, sexism, and classism. My experience in Dartmouth was alright but I am not going to be happy at Dartmouth; hence, I’m choosing a different college to attend next fall.</p>
<p>I’m sorry you had to see that. This is a campus of 6000? students or so, and the fact that 2 dozen interupted your time there is unfortunate.</p>
<p>I can only speak for my daughter and her experience there. She is in grad school at Dartmouth, but has classmates that were Dartmouth UG and fraternity members. As a grad student, she lives within the Dartmouth campus area, utilizes the facilities, supports the athletic events and has gone to several fraternity events at their houses with NO problem. I might also add that she is biracial, AA, and has never encountered any racism at Dartmouth or in the town of Hanover. It is sad that 2 dozen people with an agenda ruined an event that should have been special for many HS seniors.</p>
<p>There are problem’s with sexual assualt and racism at every college, to think you could find and choose another school that is absent of any of it would be naive. Again, sorry that happened to you.</p>
<p>A Facebook post from a current student:</p>
<p>Dartmouth is far from perfect. We are all well aware of the problems in our campus culture. Most of us are constantly engaged in an incredibly challenging and meaningful dialogue about these issues. But let’s not forget that this dialogue is rooted in the fact that we all love this school. We know how great Dartmouth and, more importantly, Dartmouth students can be. So we expect the very best from each other. We believe that Dartmouth should be better than sexism, racism, and sexual assault (I couldn’t agree more).</p>
<p>Recently, I feel as though campus dialogue has shifted in tone - we are acting as though the problems at Dartmouth are many times more severe than at any other institution. They are not. As disappointing as it is, racism, sexism, exclusivity, binge-drinking etc. are not uncommon at colleges across the country. We just expect better from ourselves and each other at Dartmouth. As we should.</p>
<p>Let’s focus our dialogue on IMPROVING, rather than demonizing, the college that so many of us love so much.</p>
<p>This is MidWestFather, the original poster. Thank you all for sharing our viewpoints on this topic. I have been intentionally reticent these past few days to see what progresses in the threads. You collectively have made many insightful points which I have taken to heart. One is that it might be too risky to make an enrollment decision based on one article in a magazine. Another is that such issues (sexism, binge drinking, racism, dominance of fraternities in the social and perhaps political scene on campus) are common in many colleges across the USA.</p>
<p>DD so much wants to go to Dartmouth because of its engineering program, which focuses on developing a holistic engineering mindset with many opportunities for modifying the major with liberal arts classes. The big question for her and my close friend’s son who is also interested in Dartmouth engineering sciences is how easy would it be for a male or female freshman to stay clear of the noxious elements of the Greek system while pursuing their engineering major? Will a male or female student be able to find decent housing outside of the Greek system? Will they be able to find others who also wish to steer clear of the Greek system and who are majoring in engineering sciences?</p>
<p>Bottom-line is that thanks to your collective postings, Dartmouth is back again a top choice for DD and son of my close friend. Both DD and son of close friend are admits to the 2017 and are very interested in Engineering Sciences AB/BE at Dartmouth. We would live very much the opportunity to continue our conversation with any of you who are parents or current students or recent alumns via personal chat via College Confidential. Please let us know if you’re willing to engage in such chat and how best to reach you.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for your heartfelt and insightful comments. You have broadened our thinking on this matter and changed our original position. </p>
<p>Warm regards,</p>
<p>MidWestFather to DD and DS of close friend, both Dartmouth 2017 admits for Engineering</p>
<p>One interesting thing I found in the structure for Dartmouth requirements is how few quarters one has to spend on campus as a mandatory requirement.</p>
<p>So if one finds the experience to be really bad, it is not hard to go on internships or study abroad for several quarters.</p>
<p>Wow, this thread came at just the right time for us. DS is in the same boat as MidWestFather. My son loves Dartmouth’s engineering approach but is VERY wary about Dartmouth’s Greek system, which seems to pervade and dominate much of campus life at Dartmouth. Is there a way for my son to avoid the Greek system and still get reasonable housing and meaningful social life? He has simple pleasures, he avoids drinking, smoking, loud partying all together. He also has little to no interest in sports. He does love to build and find connections between engineering and philosophy, history, arts and economics. For fun, he likes to tinker with inventions and launch ventures to bring together engineers and other non-engineering students to solve real problems. He is directly the opposite of the hard-drinking, macho, sports-focused fraternity male that Dartmouth seems to attract. He is Asian-American. Can he find a way to do the things he enjoys and find like-minded people at Dartmouth while steering clear of the Greek system at Dartmouth?</p>
<p>Your comments are most appreciated as my son needs to decide in just a few days. He is Thank you so very much.</p>
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<p>I have to give kudos to the OP. Rarely on CC do we actually see somebody take into account other posters opinions and are open to changing their mind. :)</p>
<p>Thanks MWfather for returning to the thread. My son is a '14 non-greek, non-drinking student who has found his place there. My daughter is a grad student there who is having the time of her life there. They now ski and snowboard and hang out in Hanover and meet up with friends in cafes, libraries, the Hop, and neighboring towns. I have never seen them happier. They tells us of the flaws at Dartmouth, but compared to other colleges, the flaws are outweighed by the positive aspects of the college. They love the traditions and are proud to be part of the Big Green family. We, in turn, are happy to recommend Dartmouth. We have friends who retired in Hanover after their children left. Whatever college your children choose, I hope they find their place. It’s a great time to be a parent. I agree that this discussion is healthy.</p>
<p>GA2012 mom I hope your daughter is doing well, our kids have met and enjoyed her company. Maybe we will meet up when we are there for graduation.</p>
<p>PS: check out the youTube video on the welcoming address to the Class of '17. Great story of the engineering student inter-acting with the medical school and business school to invent a bio-medical tool for surgeries and develop a marketing plan. Kids do amazing things there.</p>
<p>My son was a '12. He was a member of a fraternity–not SAE (I-banker wannabee central) or one of those associated with sports teams. He had no interest in any of those houses, and in fact started his college search with a very anti-Greek attitude, and doubtless would never have considered pledging on the vast majority of campuses. But the D frat scene is in fact very different from those at other schools: completely open, very diverse. (Please note that in Lohse’s highly-colored account he revealed his extreme social-climbing, and rejected the mere thought of joining a house such as S’s.) His house genuinely provided him with opportunities for personal growth. He held numerous offices over the years. His house was extremely diverse, racially, religiously, socio-economically. In fact, most of his close friends from Dartmouth are “persons of color” and/or from other countries–including his girlfriends. 
(I would add that FA makes it possible for any student to belong to and live in a house if they wish.)</p>
<p>The idea that a student has to join a house for “decent housing” is, frankly, ludicrous. I really don’t know where this idea sprang from. In fact, many house members never choose to live in their houses, and the dorm rooms are generally MUCH nicer than frat house accommodations. My S lived in his house for about 2 years, then moved out and into a 2-room suite with a friend. He said that it was much better, and he wished he had done so sooner. :)</p>
<p>The reality is that by that time he had really outgrown the house. His relationships with brothers endure, but it had served its purpose for him. </p>
<p>We discussed the whole hazing thing at length. S does not share in the condemnation of Lohse. He thinks that Lohse was guilty of significant exaggeration in order to attract attention and get published, but he also thinks that some of the stuff he said was true. S’s house did not engage in the kind of hazing Lohse described. He said, “We like our pledges, why would we want to make them miserable?” </p>
<p>My S actually thinks that D would be better off if it abolished fraternities and sororities, or at least converted the houses into coed living spaces. So I think his view is pretty balanced. BTW, he knew many people who chose not to join any house. They all seemed to have a good college experience. And note that, because of the openness of the frat scene, no one has to belong to a house to go to parties at them, if they wish.</p>
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<p>This doesn’t describe my S at all. The fraternities are not all cut from the same cloth, anymore than the entire student body is. The best thing to do at D or ANY school is to approach the school with an open mind, and ignore the Andrew Lohse-style social-climbing, self-promoting types.</p>
<p>Great MagnumPI! My daughter is pretty hard to miss, hobbling around town in a full leg brace and until a week ago crutches. It has been a very long 4 months for her. 
Dartmouth security has been great, whenever she needed a ride whether it was due to the distance or the ice/snow, they would send a security car to pick her up and take her to class or even the bus stop to get to the hospital.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for your continued interest and kindness in sharing your viewpoints. </p>
<p>Poster “Consolation” comments about how a non Greek person can still find housing on campus at Dartmouth is reassuring. We heard about a non-substance dorm and also a East Wheelock Cluster dorm as alternatives for non-Greek students. Can anyone share more information about housing options that are non Greek?</p>
<p>One question that I hope you’ll address is:</p>
<p>Does the Greek system, particularly the fraternity brothers insert themselves into college life in such a way that it is unavoidable (e.g. in cafeterias the frat brothers act as boors and irritate or harass non-Greek students on campus)? Or can a student simply refrain from participating in the Greek system and be spared of the unpleasant influence of such? I have heard stories of fraternity brothers in some colleges who act with impunity on campus and so their boorish and philistine behavior couldn’t always be avoided. I recall from my college days when some frat brothers would irritate and harass others (Greeks or non-greeks) at the cafeteria, students lounges, etc. So it wasn’t easy to avoid their impact even when I steered clear of attending fraternity parties and houses.</p>
<p>Once again, thank you for your engagement in this discussion.</p>
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<p>Yes, my highly-intellectual, introverted, philosophically-minded, musician, linguist son is a philistine and a boor who routinely harrassed other students at FoCo throughout his four years at Dartmouth. So did his fraternity brothers, the black playwright, the student orchestra conductor, the Phi Beta Kappa chemist, and the Brahmin political activist. You really need to get away from these stereotypes.</p>
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<p>Look, MOST of the students on campus live in the dorms! It isn’t a question of having to search out housing. Really.</p>
<p>You have the wrong idea about Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Greek at DM is a social/party thing: it’s not a housing thing. Very, very few members actually live in the houses. D’s sorority, for example, probably houses at most 20 of the 100+ members.</p>
<p>My daughter is a '14 and has not joined a sorority and not skipped a beat socially. Her housing has been outstanding-close to the green, so a great location. She loves Dartmouth- academically and socially. My understanding is that all parties are opened to non-affiliated students and no pressure is exerted to drink, etc.
Our visits have left us with the impression that Dartmouth is a very special place filled with outstanding students that I look forward to seeing in leadership positions.
Her internships and study abroad experiences have been first rate.
She is already lamenting the day she graduates and has to leave this great place.
If your daughter wishes to communicate with her, please let me know and I will arrange it.</p>
<p>The majority of students (even those who are greek) do not live in greek housing (because the housing does not hold that many people). On campus housing is guaranteed freshman and sophomore year so your D will not have any problems regarding housing. Junior year there is a lot of movement between internships, leave terms, studying abroad (but they can arrange to be pulled in to housing by their friends for the term(s) that they are on campus. Senior year, they are the first to be called for room draw, so they get something that they want in housing draw.</p>
<p>My non drinking D lived in EW freshman year, was a UGA in the no defunct tree houses sophomore year, lived in her house when she was on campus (studied abroad and took a leave term to study for the LSAT) junior year, senior year lived on mass row. She has a lot of friends both in and outside of the greek system (when I spoke with her earlier, she was attending brunch with a few of them today). She has friends both in and outside of the greek system. She never felt pressured to drink. 5 years after Dartmouth, she is a one drink on a social occasion person (she saw much more drinking on thursday night bar review in law school).</p>
<p>Dartmouth is far from perfect as most schools are far from perfect. But she had an amazing 4 years in Hanover and can’t wait to go back for reunion in June (x-posted with superbobbyg, I have never seen soo much crying at graduation because they were leaving each other).</p>
<p>Per poster Consolation, I have a very limited understanding of the fraternity system at Dartmouth. I was under the impression that all of the Dartmouth fraternities reflected the stereotype of the predominantly white, affluent, hard-drinking, macho, misogynist, athlete. If this is not the case, then I am absolutely delighted to discover my ignorance and misconception of fraternities at Dartmouth. </p>
<p>A question: my child was not available to attend Dimension for admitted students this past weekend but would very much like to visit Dartmouth next week. Is there a way to arrange a visit by ourselves to include sitting in on classes and talking to students and professors? Is it possible for us to also get an overnight stay with a current student? I’ll call Dartmouth admissions office tomorrow but hoped to get some insights from you all on this blog. </p>
<p>Thank you again.</p>