Not to pick nits here, but my experience applying to Penn and other Ivies in the 1970s was a bit different than that. Although I was originally accepted to and enrolled in CAS at Penn, I ended up transferring into Wharton after freshman year. And, speaking as a Penn student in the 1970s, it was never my experience on campus that Wharton was considered inferior to CAS, or a back door into Penn or the Ivies. On the contrary, many of the brightest kids I knew at Penn were in Wharton (and went on to, e.g., Harvard, Yale, Penn, etc. for law school), and were Benjamin Franklin Scholars, etc. In fact, many of Penn’s most illustrious alumni at that time were Wharton grads, including Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, GE CEO Reginald Jones, CBS Chairman William Paley, Walter Annenberg, etc. Even then (and certainly going back at least to the 1920s and 1930s), Wharton had a reputation and prestige that transcended that of Penn in general. For example, it wasn’t uncommon for me and my Wharton classmates to encounter folks back home who had heard of (and dare I say it, were impressed by?) Wharton, but had no idea that it was part of Penn, or that Penn was a private, Ivy League school that was not Penn State. Perhaps your perspective as a high school student applying to Ivies–and ultimately enrolled at an Ivy–with an interest in the liberal arts was a bit different (especially influenced, as many of us were, by the social upheaval and anti-business climate of the late 1960s), but in my personal experience at Penn during the 1970s, Wharton undergrad was every bit as respected both at Penn and in the outside world, as was CAS. In fact, if anything, Wharton was a bit higher up on the Penn prestige pecking order, as the vast majority of Wharton undergrads were enrolled at their first-choice college (even then, Wharton was peerless among undergraduate business schools), whereas many–if not most–CAS students were NOT enrolled at their first-choice college (that being in the days when Penn CAS was often viewed as a back-up to other Ivies).
I believe that from 2005 (29%) to 2015 (9.9%) the overall admission rates to Penn has fallen more than any other Ivy, MIT or Stanford. That precipitous surge in applicants and drop in admission rates has occurred across all of Penn’s four undergraduate schools, which have become target destinations for the country’s, and the world’s, very best students. All Penn grads broadly should take a lot of pride in that fact.
Penn administrators, faculty, alumni, and students, have worked hard and shown a lot of wisdom to put Penn in that position. They have maintained Penn’s long history of balancing book learning and practical, hands on experience. Penn has also consistently offered students cross-school experiences that are offered at very few schools such as Management & Technology, Huntsman, DMD, the NETS program, etc. Penn has also worked to maintain a curriculum that is rigid enough to ensure that students are getting a world class education, while maintaining enough flexibility for students to also explore their own personal interests. The school has also differentiated itself by giving all students the opportunity to take classes in any school through the One Penn policy. Additionally, Penn has tried to walk a fine line to challenge students aggressively to be there best academically, while still realizing that college years are important for students to develop socially. They have done this at a time when many other colleges have either become educational boot camps, or perpetual drunken parties. Finally, Penn offers students outstanding opportunities to participate in research and gain work experience through internships. All of these things have contributed to top students finding Penn increasingly attractive, over time.
Oddly to those of us that are newcomers, instead of taking pride in the fact that they have contributed to Penn’s rise and the amazing success, some of the old-time alums prefer to wrangle over which school was better when they were there 40 years ago. To me it is a little like a football team winning the Superbowl and instead of being happy afterwards, the offensive and defensive player are arguing in the locker room about which group did a better job. I am too new to understand the history of this odd dynamic, but I am happy to report that it does not seem to spill over to the students on campus. The students seem to be happily integrated with friends in all four schools, and view themselves as all Penn students.
The SEAS admission rate has now dropped lower than Wharton’s and is close to MIT’s rate. I believe that Wharton and Nursing currently have the lowest admission rates of any school in their respective specialties, and the CAS admission rate is also at an all-time low. That translates into Penn’s overall undergrad admission rate having fallen more than all other Ivies, Stanford, and MIT since 2005. Those are clear signs of the amazing quality of Penn programs broadly. All Penn Alumni should take pride in that. Congratulations to all of you who have been a part of the Penn family and helped to make it what it is today. These are achievements that all of you should all be proud of.
If that was directed at me (since I’m the only Penn alum in this thread who identified himself as having attended in the 1970s), I think you’re misconstruing the intent of my post. When I was at Penn, aside from some occasional good-natured ribbing and very friendly rivalry, there was no hard-core competition among Penn’s undergraduate students as to which school within Penn was “better” or more prestigious or contributed the most to Penn’s academic reputation. Indeed, you’re probably unaware of this, but in my day, there was an additional undergraduate school at Penn, the School of Allied Medical Professions (SAMP), which offered majors in Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, and Medical Technology if memory serves. And we all lived together, ate together (much less off-campus dining in those days), took classes together (all 5 undergraduate schools had some liberal arts requirements in common), and socialized together. And my experience with current alumni from that era (I’ve recently been an alumni fundraising volunteer and attend alumni events fairly regularly) is that they continue to take pride in all of Penn’s accomplishments and ever-growing prestige, and not just in their own schools. So to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply that Wharton is better than any of Penn’s other undergraduate schools, or should be singled out for its role in Penn’s growing eminence. I was just responding to JHS’ perception that, at Penn at least, Wharton was viewed as somehow inferior to or a back door into CAS in the 1970s because, as I said above based on my own personal experience and that of my friends and classmates at Penn, that was simply not the case.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that Penn’s greatness has long been, and remains, the symbiotic, interdisciplinary strength of all of its schools combined which, as I’ve posted here many times, has been a part of Penn’s institutional DNA since its founding in the 18th century.
My cousin recently attended her 30 year reunion at Penn, and she said she was rather envious of my son to be attending. She said Penn has so much more to offer students now than when she attended (and she loved her time there), and that Philly has grown and changed, and has so much wonderful culture to offer, as well. She was very impressed to see the positive growth and changes at Penn.
Here is a copy of the letter that the outgoing Dean of SEAS, Dean Glandt, sent to “Alumni and Friends.” In the third paragraph, you can see “The increase in the popularity of Penn Engineering is almost explosive: we are now the University’s most selective undergraduate school.”
Dear Alumni and Friends,
Tomorrow, I will be stepping down as dean of Penn Engineering, and I write to thank you—students, colleagues, alumni, and friends— for many wonderful and gratifying years. Penn is the people, really, as much as it is the place.
I knew I belonged here the moment I walked onto campus as a graduate student; everything in the institution somehow resonated with me. It felt right then and it feels right now. For as much as things have changed around us, I share with you that indescribable feeling of connectedness with the mission and spirit of the University.
I am fortunate to be taking this step at a perfect moment, perfect for our profession and for our School. The increase in the popularity of Penn Engineering is almost explosive: we are now the University’s most selective undergraduate school. Our faculty are at the top of their game, continually creating new and challenging curricula that match the talent and ambition of their exceptional students. Our seasoned staff has the knowledge and know-how to keep us at the forefront of engineering education, and our award-winning facilities are outfitted with the latest equipment and instrumentation. There could be no better time to welcome our new dean, Vijay Kumar.
I was thrilled when I learned that the extensive search to fill the deanship ended in the Towne Building. Vijay is an undisputed leader within Penn Engineering, a trusted and beloved colleague whose vision is informed by dynamism and optimism, and whose knowledge of the School is as deep as it is broad. I know he will value your friendship and loyalty as much as I do.
You have my best wishes,
Eduardo D. Glandt
Nemirovsky Family Dean
I can’t evaluate a statement if I haven’t read either, but I have a few thoughts:
Since I graduated from Penn 5 yrs ago, I know that Penn has gone to tremendous lengths to beef up the tech side of the SEAS curriculum. I know this b/c I work at a large tech company in Silicon Valley that looks to recruit talent from the SEAS pool. Actually, many tech companies now recruit at Penn whereas 5 yrs ago, the recruiting process was heavily dominated by banks and consulting companies.
So, in terms of the competitiveness of each school, I can’t say. However, I do know that Penn wants its graduates to take jobs in growing industries (like tech), and therefore they are putting a lot more emphasis on the degrees that are conducive to jobs in these industries.
For instance, PennApps was nonexistent when I was at Penn; however, it is one of the bigger tech hackathons across universities. I bet that this kind of emphasis at SEAS has made Penn more enticing to potential applicants.
“I know that Penn has gone to tremendous lengths to beef up the tech side of the SEAS curriculum.”
Part of the reason is that, in addition to the popularity of tech related majors, there are also students in all four schools who have some degree of interest in all of the changes that are happening with technology/coding and would like to take a few classes and explore their interest.
@lana100sf yeah penn apps has become the biggest &most prestigious college hackathon in the country. i think it is all part of penn s continued efforts to strengthen STEM more and more while ensuring the university is increasingly integrated on the undergraduate level,thus providing a very well rounded but also technically rigorous engineering education + top notch recruitment opportunities.