Dean Glandt letter to alums--SEAS has become the most selective ugrad school at Penn (?)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

My brother is a Penn SEAS alum and recently received a farewell letter addressed to alums from Dean Glandt , who is soon stepping down as the Dean of SEAS. One of the points on the letter was that Penn SEAS has become the most selective undergraduate school at Penn. The letter does not specify what metrics this claim is based on (acceptance rate, sat scores, both?) but I really doubt Dean Glandt would have made such a statement if it was not at least partially based on some sort of hard facts.

It is true that Penn Engineering has made incredible progress over the past years and it has been widely known that is has become more selective than CAS in the latest years, but I would never have guessed that Penn SEAS has surpassed Wharton in either accetance rate or sat scores or both (the two most reasonable metrics of selectivity). Truth is there has been a huge surge of interest in tech, engineering over the past few years which could explain a big increase in applicants for Penn SEAS and a lower acceptance rate for SEAS. Also Penn has done a great job of letting it be known that you dont need to be in wharton to land top business jobs and that all Penn undergrads have access to the same recruiting etc and do equally well in elite firm recruiting, a claim which backed by the annual career statistics and also external salary rankings etc, so people might be more open to applying to SEAS cause the are interested in engineering, knowing that they are gonna have similar career outcomes…i cant think of any other explanations…

In the end, it doesnt really make any difference, especially since Penn has been very successful in integrating all the ugrad school over the past decade and creating a more cohesive ugrad experience… But that said, Wharton has always been the crown jewel of Penn, and especially Wharton undergrad is the top ugrad business program in the country and the world, so i was very taken aback by this statement.

Any thoughts? What do you make of this statement?

2

I need to read his entire letter to understand the whole context. Without that, it’s neither here nor there.
What we have here is YOUR interpretation of the letter.
And for full disclosure, you are a SEAS student, aren’t you?

3

A year ago a senior Penn administrator told me that SEAS and Wharton admission rates were now very similar, but declined to say which one was actually lower. If the SEAS admission rate is a bit lower than Wharton, that really does not surprise me at all.

I think that will come as a lot less of a surprise within the Penn community than it probably is to people from the outside, who are more likely to have an image of Wharton being superior to the rest of Penn. To their credit, actual Wharton students and alumni rarely seem to have that attitude. Within the Penn community, I think that there is a lot more mutual respect across schools.

The reality is that Wharton, CAS, and SEAS all have great programs and very low admission rates, regardless of which one happens to have the lowest admission rate right now. The Nursing admission rate is somewhat higher, but is an extremely low admission rate for a Nursing program. Personally, I think that they should only release an overall Penn admission rate, but to the extent that this is necessary to help people to understand the quality of students across schools at Penn, then it is useful.

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^^ Since we don’t know the EXACT figures, it is pure speculation. Most rankings on best undergraduate engineering programs don’t include Penn in the top ten in the country, it is doubtful that the admissions rate is lower than Wharton.

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@cbreeze Not knowing the exact figures does not make it pure speculation. He provided a credible source.

I am not sure that the SEAS admission rate is lower than Wharton, but I am sure that it is close and I don’t really understand why which one is a bit lower really matters. The point is that they are similar. There is no need for Wharton students to feel threatened by that.

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@cbreeze i am SEAS and Wharton (uncoordinated not M&T) . The reason i posted here about it is that i was so surprised, like i would have bet good money that wharton was more selective than SEAS by every measure since wharton is the undisuted number 1 worldwide for ugrad business education like MIT is for engineering. but maybe the fact that tech and stem are so hot right now could explain why…the letter basically said that “the progress Penn Engineering has made is incredible: it is now the most selective undergraduate school at Penn“. The letter did not include specific figures but I find it hard to believe that a person like Dean Glandt would have thrown something like this out there without some hard facts backing it up…in any case if this is true i think it is good for Penn overall. any school that doesnt have a good and expanding engineering program will be left behind nowadays… besides wharton will always be the top and most prestigious place for a ugrad business education no matter what, and it is in fact a reason why even many non-wharton students choose Penn (better recruiting, pre-prof culture, supplement engineering/lib arts education with business classes).

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There’s no need to be mocking and accusatory here of all Wharton students just because someone doesn’t agree with you.

I know you can take classes at Wharton but unless you are officially admitted to Wharton itself, you cannot get an official designation from Wharton.

As I said what you both claim is heresay. Unless it can be substantiated , there’s no debate here.

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@cbreeze “Most rankings on best undergraduate engineering programs don’t include Penn in the top ten in the country”

True, but you assume that those rankings are meaningful.

For example, the US news rankings for “Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs” are based solely on a survey of administrators. Half of them do not vote at all, and most of the other half have specific motives for how they vote. If the rankings process contained more objective criteria about academic reputation, student selectivity, faculty resources, student retention, graduation rates, financial resources, research, alumni giving, job placement, diversity, cross-admit decisions, etc., then Penn SEAS would be ranked much more highly.

A simple test is to try this, “Imagine that your son/daughter has the opportunity to attend any college as an engineering major, prepare list colleges in the order that you would recommend to him/her to get the best college education/experience.”

If you are objective/honest, your list will not be remotely similar to the US News ranking Undergraduate Engineering ranking. In contrast, if you follow the same process for the overall rankings, I think you will find that your ranking of colleges overall will be significantly more similar to the US News “National Universities” rankings.

Is it reasonable that an informed parent would tell their college-bound engineering major that they are indifferent between Penn, Harvard, University of California - San Diego, Ohio State University, and USC? According to US News these five engineering programs are equal. It is clear that the US News undergraduate engineering rankings are just very poorly done.

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@Much2learn. You and I will have to disagree. If I had a child wanting to major in engineering, Penn will not be on my list unless you really want an Ivy degree, then Cornell will be on my list above Penn even though 4 generations of my family have been Penn grads. When my children were applying to colleges, we looked at the programs that they were interested first, then the overall environment of the schools.
Since I live in the silicon valley, Berkeley,Stanford, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, UC-San Diego would have been the top choices.

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@cbreeze you seem not to be aware/ informed about how Penn undergraduate degrees work. Apart from the M&T program which is between wharton and seas, students are able to be enrolled in both Wharton and SEAS and pursue an uncoordinated degree in Engineering and Business. the way this works is that you initially enter into one of the two schools and up until the end of your sophomore year you can apply to the other to pursue an uncoordinated dual degree…(it is basically like m&t but you are not in the m&t program)

Also the claim is not heresay. The claim was written in an official email sent by the Dean of the Engineering school to Penn engineering alumni…What part of that is heresay?

I did not post this to create antagonism between the two schools at Penn, it doesnt really matter they are both part of Penn. However the stereotype which survives from previous decades (when it was in fact true) is that wharton is much more selective than CAS and SEAS, and if any part part of the Deans claim is true (and some of it most prob is, otherwise the dean would not have mentioned it) then that stereotype is sort of officially dispelled and this benefits Penn as a whole.

Also Penn SEAS might not be MIT, but it has many top-notch departments such as bioengineering, nanotech, robotics the NETS program etc

also another reason why Penn SEAS might be popular.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/05/30/50-college-diplomas-with-the-highest-pay/

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OK, since it is an official letter, why don’t you print or quote what he said ?

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I just put a call into SEAS office and left a message. I am interested to see what the Dean said.

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@much2learn "There is no need for Wharton students to feel threatened by that.

@cbreeze “There’s no need to be mocking and accusatory here of all Wharton students just because someone doesn’t agree with you.”

I did not intend my comment to be mocking or accusatory to Wharton students in any way.

The OP’s initial post was specific, thoughtful, well-reasoned, and open to discussion. I have to say that I do not understand your response. To me the tone of your comments (listed below) is that this can’t be true, that the OP is not telling the truth, and if it is true you would feel threatened, and that you must disprove it.

  1. "I need to read his entire letter to understand the whole context. Without that, it's neither here nor there. What we have here is YOUR interpretation of the letter. And for full disclosure, you are a SEAS student, aren't you?"
  2. "Since we don't know the EXACT figures, it is pure speculation." and
  3. "OK, since it is an official letter, why don't you print or quote what he said?"
  4. "As I said what you both claim is heresay. Unless it can be substantiated, there's no debate here."
  5. "If I had a child wanting to major in engineering, Penn will not be on my list unless you really want an Ivy degree."
  6. "I just put a call into SEAS office and left a message. I am interested to see what the Dean said."

You seem to view Penn Engineering is an inferior program that students would only choose to attend for the Penn and Ivy League brands. I can only assume that you are not up-to-date on the current level of programs that SEAS is offering and the quality of student that they are attracting.

Today, SEAS has outstanding programs, faculty, facilities, a very rigorous curriculum, and excellent resources. Did you know that over 90% of SEAS students have a job before they graduate? That most SEAS students have multiple job offers at graduation? That SEAS has one of the highest average starting salary levels among all colleges?

Please check @Penn95’s information all you wish. You can call Dean Furda, Dean Garnett, or Dean Kumar or President Gutmann. Since I have been aware of the fact that the rates are similar for a year now, it is really not even news. I assume that Penn has not published this information because it really changes nothing. Both schools are outstanding in their own right, and they are not in competition with each other. They are on the same team. It is One Penn.

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Over the past five years the acceptance rate to Columbia’s Fu school or engineering has plummeted to the point where it is now less than MIT’s (not saying the applicant pool is as strong though). The point is, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that SEAS’s acceptance rate is near or below Wharton’s. The recession we experienced has resulted in a surge of applicants in STEM related fields.

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@Much2learn, I am not going to analyze something that I have not read in its entirety because as I stated, I need to know its context. What’s wrong with asking for quotes ? Why should you become so incensed that I want verification instead of accepting an anonymous post as the truth?
I called the SEAS office to get a copy of the Dean’s letter because OP has refused to supply me with quotes.Why should it rankle you?

I stated my personal preferences for engineering programs because you asked. But you were angered by that fact that I didn’t list Penn. Mathmom has a son who turned down Harvard for CMU engineering. Fact. We have our personal preferences and you have yours. And your son attends SEAS, good for him.

There’s no need for ad hominem attack and no, I do not feel inferior or threatened. By the tone of your posts, you seem extremely emotional.

@Falcon1, are you comparing acceptance rate of Columbia’s Fu engineering school to MIT (the whole university) or MIT’s school of engineering?

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@cbreeze “@Much2learn, I am not going to analyze something that I have not read in its entirety because as I stated, I need to know its context. What’s wrong with asking for quotes ? Why should you become so incensed that I want verification instead of accepting an anonymous post as the truth?
I called the SEAS office to get a copy of the Dean’s letter because OP has refused to supply me with quotes.Why should it rankle you?”

I am not rankled about you asking to clarify facts. My issue is that I do not understand why a Penn alumni whose family has attended Penn for 4 generations would take a positive post about Penn SEAS and try to use it to to express the false view that Penn SEAS does not provide a world class education? Why falsely suggest that the reason a student would attend Penn SEAS is that the Ivy League affiliation helps them feel good about themselves? Why aggressively challenge evidence suggesting that Penn SEAS has actually developed into a world class school with admissions that are just as competitive as Wharton? And once you discover that the fact you challenged is true, why drop the subject instead of admitting that it is true? It seems clear that you intend to say nothing about Penn SEAS unless it is negative. I don’t mind honest critique at all, but you seem to lack an understanding of the quality of the programs and students at Penn SEAS today.

Am I proud of my Penn SEAS student? Sure. We did our homework about the quality and features of the top SEAS programs in the country. We took the time to assess the substance of the school and the student experience, and ignored rankings. My student chose Penn SEAS over Berkeley (Chancellor’s scholarship and $100k merit money), CMU, Columbia FU, Cornell (likely letter), UVA (Echols scholar), and University of Michigan Engineering ($80k in merit money), in addition to several others, and provided a very detailed assessment of why Penn SEAS was the best fit. Those schools are all excellent options, I am not disparaging them. Any of them will provide an outstanding education, and may be the best choice for the right student.

What I think stands out about my student’s story is its very ordinariness at Penn SEAS. Today, Penn SEAS is full of extraordinary students who chose Penn over other top engineering programs because they believe it provides the best programs and fit for them. Today, the challenges, workload, resources, and opportunities that Penn SEAS students are given can be matched at a small handful of top schools. Any second-rate admit that slips in will wash out of Penn SEAS by the first mid-term.

As a Penn Alumni, and member of a family of Alums, please take the time to educate yourself about the facts today, before falsely disparaging your own Alma Mater and its students. Today, all of Penn’s schools offer outstanding programs.

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@cbreeze here is the full email–lol btw i never refused to supply you with the full email, i was just out for the 4th and didnt check this until now…also everything @Much2learn is saying is very much on point…ok so here it is:

Dear Alumni and Friends,

Tomorrow, I will be stepping down as dean of Penn Engineering, and I write to thank you—students, colleagues, alumni, and friends— for many wonderful and gratifying years. Penn is the people, really, as much as it is the place.

I knew I belonged here the moment I walked onto campus as a graduate student; everything in the institution somehow resonated with me. It felt right then and it feels right now. For as much as things have changed around us, I share with you that indescribable feeling of connectedness with the mission and spirit of the University.

I am fortunate to be taking this step at a perfect moment, perfect for our profession and for our School. The increase in the popularity of Penn Engineering is almost explosive: we are now the University’s most selective undergraduate school. Our faculty are at the top of their game, continually creating new and challenging curricula that match the talent and ambition of their exceptional students. Our seasoned staff has the knowledge and know-how to keep us at the forefront of engineering education, and our award-winning facilities are outfitted with the latest equipment and instrumentation. There could be no better time to welcome our new dean, Vijay Kumar.

I was thrilled when I learned that the extensive search to fill the deanship ended in the Towne Building. Vijay is an undisputed leader within Penn Engineering, a trusted and beloved colleague whose vision is informed by dynamism and optimism, and whose knowledge of the School is as deep as it is broad. I know he will value your friendship and loyalty as much as I do.

You have my best wishes,

Eduardo D. Glandt
Nemirovsky Family Dean

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Not surprised at all! Engineering is extremely popular around the world and Penn’s offerings are outstanding- why wouldn’t the masses want in on this premier education? As has been said, all of Penn’s schools are top notch and the selectivity of each only serves to strengthen the others! Wonderful to see that all of Penn’s schools are each finding opportunities to admit the best possible class from among the widest possible applicant pools. While selectivity in and of itself is meaningless, the ability to choose from the best students across the board is a strong sign of Penn’s very bright present and future. Furthermore, increased interest in one of our undergrad schools is really more of a sign of increased interest in a Penn education defined by interdisciplinary and boundary shattering intellectual opportunities. Being an engineer at Penn means easy access to not only the best scholars in engineering and all of the commensurate opportunities, but also access to the best liberal arts and business curriculums available in this country as well. Which specific undergrad school these 17 year olds apply to within Penn is a simple formality resulting from their primary fields of interest. Any truly meaningful barriers between the four undergrad schools evaporated years ago under Judith Rodin. Increased selectivity in one school means increased selectivity for Penn as a whole and I couldn’t be happier to see Penn on the rise (as we so frequently do since President Rodin)!

Finally, I’m not a parent so I can’t say for sure how I might advise my child when choosing an engineering school. But I’d probably tell her to look at career outcomes for graduates of each school since engineering is a profession for which her school should prepare her. With a higher average starting salary then Cornell Engineering and an average salary only a little lower than that of MIT, I think Penn would do that just fine. I would probably advise my child to attend the school where she felt she would have the most enriching overall experience based on academics, extracurriculars and opportunities outside of her major/homeschool and outside of campus. With almost identical career placement opportunities between Penn, MIT and Cornell, I would tell her to attend a university that would allow her to pursue all of her interests, even those outside of engineering with the support of the entire university system behind her-- a place, perhaps, like Penn, where Penn Engineers can pick up a major in the College of Arts and Sciences without having to enroll specifically in the school. But I definitely wouldn’t tell her to use a ranking system that is widely discredited and unhelpful when assessing the likelihood of her personal success…

Career Services Senior Survey Information for Class of 2013 (Penn Engineering, Cornell Engineering, MIT):
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SeniorSurvey2013Final.pdf

http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/resources/career_services/students/statistics/upload/COE-Overview-Class-of-2013.pdf

https://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/files/2013_GSS_Survey.pdf

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Also Dean Glandt is a boss. That is all

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cbreeze, I hate to break it to you, but comparative admission rates and prestige are dynamic over time. When I was applying to college in the 1970s, Wharton was seen as a back door into the Ivy League, not unlike, say, Penn’s nursing program or hotel management at Cornell. Then, as now, it was the premiere undergraduate business program, but that was like saying it was the tallest dwarf. “Business” (including finance) was not really a respectable area of academic study, and people applied to Wharton if they were not sure they would get accepted as a CAS applicant. When I reconnected with college admissions lore a decade ago, as my children approached the end of high school, one of the biggest shocks was learning that I was supposed to regard Wharton with reverence and awe as some sort of super-elite enclave at Penn.