@SculptorDad If she is that emotionally fragile, your approach to college is going to be different.
She is quite tough, but is introvert. That is different. It takes time to adjust to new people. College classes are fine because she sees the same classmates for longer period. She did it full time since 11. But smaller colleges might be better because she can see the same people in other classes too.
We have nothing against volunteering. She did it for autistic kids for half a year when she was younger. She wants something else for now though, even if will hurt her admission chance.
@gearmom I am sorry but I feel that you are keep reading what you want rather than what I wrote.
My daughter is a talented artist too, as well as being quite the science geek (wants to be a physicist). She is totally self taught and does mostly portraits. She has never studied art as an elective or any community art class. When she was submitting applications to the colleges she wants to go to I encouraged her to add some of her art to her profile. I think it shows what an interesting person she is. She also uploaded some recordings of her playing the flute and clarinet. I don’t think it hurts to show her other talents besides good grades. I wouldn’t have her studying art if she doesn’t plan to pursue it, unless she is doing so as a hobby and something she truly enjoys.
@gearmom In our house, the kids volunteer their time not for admissions but for life balance, community service as part of your life. Part of their educational experience.
It might also be an EC for admissions. You were looking at have her put together a portfolio or supplement for that and seemed concerned that hers were not strong. Might be important for an LAC.
Something like drawing birthday cards that could latter be donated would be both, life balance and a worthwhile EC.
@gearmom, can you accept that our kids are different, and also we would accept lower admission chance because of it? Volunteering is not this thread’s main topic. She doesn’t enjoy drawing birthday cards for random people or donating/selling her precious works. Please stop pushing community service and let’s move on.
@SculptorDad - Lack of volunteer experience is not going to “hurt” your daughter’s admission chances in general. It may impact college choice, because some colleges place higher value on volunteerism and community service than others – but that comes back to fit again. But community service is not a college entry requirement-- it is just an example of something that some students do – but truthfully, no college is going to pay attention to it unless the student is doing a LOT of volunteer work.
It can make a big difference for private scholarships, especially the scholarships awarded by local community organizations — because in general people who are in charge of giving away money look favorably on students who seem to be actively involved in their communities. So if the local Lion’s Club has a scholarship, it’s probably going to go to a student with a combination of financial need and a record of community service. But most private scholarships are relatively small, and colleges will typically reduce need grant aid when students get outside scholarships – so volunteering is not any guarantee of winning those awards.
My son is the volunteering type; in high school, my daughter was not. (She became more motivated to volunteer in college). Other than our in-state publics, there was no overlap in the colleges they chose to apply to, but both got into most of the colleges where they applied. So I can’t say that it made a difference overall.
Honestly, the thing that made the most difference was my son’s PSAT score. He qualified for National Merit; my daughter didn’t – and that damn test score was a huge boost for both college admissions and funds – though, unfortunately, not at most of the colleges he actually wanted to attend. And I personally don’t like standardized tests-- so never was particularly comfortable with the status conferred by that somewhat dubious accomplishment. But if you want to know what really helps in college admissions, that’s the real world reality.
I think the point is that when it comes time for college applications, the student will want to highlight their strengths, whatever those may be. The kid who has done a lot of community service can highlight that. Perhaps your daughter will highlight her art work with a supplement – or perhaps by the time she is a senior there will be other EC’s or academic accomplishments or outside endeavors she will want to focus on.
If you wanted to encourage your daughter to volunteer because of your own ethical or religious leadings, then I think that would be an appropriate thing for a parent to do.
But I think engaging in volunteer work because it might look good for college admissions is the exact wrong reason to be doing it. The whole concept is to give of oneself – not to give with an expectation of getting some sort of personal reward.
I apologize mentioning solo community service possibilities in response to overcoming working with others dilemma and again with wondering why it could not be a possibility to another poster especially with the objective of a small LAC and financial need. Done with the conversation.
@gearmom, I do appreciate that you mentioned community service, even though I didn’t want to be keep pushed. Sorry for acting rude.
My daughter has been a serious artist since she was quite young, and went back and forth in high school on whether to study art in college. She was aiming for the need-based-aid super-selectives. At the time she applied, she had decided to do math after all, but submitted an art supplement that included work produced over several years. She had considered doing AP Studio junior year but decided not to because of the time factor and because she was leaning back away from studying art in college at that point.
And I hear what you’re saying about community service but just wanted to mention since I was commenting anyway that my very introverted kid, also a serious baker, did a yearlong project producing spectacular desserts every weekend, in large quantities, for an area soup kitchen.
I believe I was the one who first brought up community service, not with the intention of creating a discussion, but in the context of a young person who seems to focus on one thing (art in middle school0, science in high school) and might respond to broadening in some way, which would not have to be volunteering- could be many things.
However, with the clues that SculptorDad has given, I can see why this might be something the daughter would resist. She has been homeschooled, is an introvert, needs long classes to connect with people, may need a small school for the same reason, and is not up to the social demands of volunteering. And does not have the desire.
She clearly also has a strong ability to hone in on an area of interest and take it to the nth degree. If this is constitutional, so to speak, meaning innate, then there is no point trying to “broaden.” Hopefully normal school life is enough for that anyway.
It would seem at first that achievement is the main motivator for this young person, which was also a concern. However, the Dad has told us she is enjoying herself and is hungry for more courses. He knows her well. Perhaps she will continue with science, perhaps not, but whatever she does, she will most likely focus on in this singleminded way. We all learn to accept who are kids are, and Sculptor Dad seems to have gotten there already.
Good luck Sculptor Dad.
ps I have discovered art in my “old age” in a small class at a community center. My classmates actually do remarkable work. Noone has done any art training. We all agree that nothing else puts us in the zone as much as making art, whether painting, printmaking or collage. So that influences any comments I may have made about having “fun”!
@compmom, I can only hope that colleges can see that and like it. And that her art supplement shows her drive rather than roundness.
@hs2015mom Sounds like your daughter walked a similar path already and made optimal choices that can probably work for my d as well.
@calmom, Thanks for sharing the analysis. About the standardize tests - The way I came to the terms with it is accepting the duality of my duties - both as a general member of the society AND as a parent. They are both sacred and should be balancing each other. Also, it helps to see the word as a teen’s eyes. Our generation is responsible in shaping the world that is more competitive with less opportunities for them than we had. We made them desperate to grab on to anything they can, fair or not. Consequently, we can’t expect the same value system we have as established members of our society to our kids. It’s easier to see if I imagine to be a teen now. D cares a great deal on politics and our natural environment as most of teens actually do contrary to our common belief. There are many ways to contribute and some are not suitable as admission EC, but it doesn’t mean that they care less, or have been contributing to and growing up from it any less than they would by volunteering locally.
I don’t get why the family is trying to circumvent or augment the work of what I imagine to be a top-notch advising program at this prep school.
OP- the person to direct these questions to is the guidance counselor. That professional has a much better understanding of the demands of the art course in question, your D’s ability to juggle the time commitment AND the school’s track record getting kids admitted to the “type” of LAC’s (with terrific aid) that you are seeking.
The rest of us? We don’t have Naviance data on past admits. We don’t know how “pointy” (for lack of a better word) your daughter presents to her teachers, or if her interests and focus come off as much more balanced than you have been presenting her. And we don’t know whether the school has a community service requirement for graduation (many privates do) and if she needs to be spending her summer chipping away at that so senior year doesn’t become a stressful, sleepless marathon.
I do want to clarify that not all community service requires being an extrovert. My introverted kid stocked shelves in a food pantry, then graduated to putting together food packages based on social worker/physician/medical needs. Completely solitary-- followed written directions and worked independently. Took a few tries to figure out gluten free/soy free/low sodium but that was based on reading comprehension, not human interaction. That was in middle school BTW. By senior year of HS, this kid was creating DVD’s for the blind by reading textbooks in a professional studio. Again- completely solitary. Organic chemistry, Constitutional Law, Advanced Pedagogical Techniques for auditory processing disorders. All the organization required was strong diction, a clear speaking voice, and fluency in English (and of course, being reliable enough to show up to the studio when scheduled.)
So I’m not quite buying into the notion that a kid who is resistant to volunteering can’t find a way to volunteer. In my town there is even an organization which matches up special needs teenagers and kids with autism with appropriate volunteer opportunities.
But back to the art dilemma- your D needs to work with the guidance team. The most valuable thing you can be doing right now is to create a spreadsheet modeling your savings, current expenses, predicted income, and how much you can safely afford to spend from savings/comfortably carve out from your income. Then run the NPC’s at a wide variety of schools (big, little, private, public, Northern/Southern). The worst thing you can all do is to decide that your D’s “dream college” is Beloit or Bennington, only to discover a 20K gap between what they think you can afford and what you can actually afford.
Work on those numbers- now- and tell your D to take advantage of the experts at her HS.
@blossom, Thanks for reminding me that. You are right of course. My old habits don’t die easily.
This thread has gone much further than my original intention of asking a question that I thought was simple and personally curious about. Thank you all for the valuable help. Let’s all move on now.
@skieurope, I would appreciate very much if this thread is closed. There is nothing more to be added.
On the community service thing, I agree with calmom and some others. Our kids got into all but one of the 13 colleges they applied to. Neither did any “volunteering” as this is typically understood. I don’t think volunteering or community service that doesn’t grow out of the student’s sincere commitment demonstrates anything about a kid’s community orientation. If the kids are very busy with a variegated set of EC’s, while also focusing on their C’s (curriculars), and if they have demonstrated achievements and competence in both of these areas, that’s enough.
Mackinaw, nobody suggested that the D isn’t going to get into college without volunteering.
But if the D is going to need significant merit aid to attend (and we don’t know this- no specifics on finances were mentioned, and if the family can afford their EFC and the D is interested in the “meets full need” and can get into those, no merit will be required) SOME of these scholarships can have a community service/volunteer type component.
And- in reference to the dad’s point that without art the D has no ECs… a few posters have pointed out that the summer doesn’t need to spent in an academic way. Some community involvement could be both a break from the intensity of schoolwork AND something to talk about that isn’t classroom based.
The dad has rejected both arguments- which is of course- his prerogative. But note that this D ISN"T very busy with a varied set of EC’s- the only EC of note is the art which the D seems now less enthused about.
After following your DD’s journey for a few years now, I have a few thoughts reading this post.
The first is that it is REALLY premature to be thinking about what kind of college would be best for her – she is only 1/3 of the way through high school at this point! She still has quite a bit of time to become the person she’ll be when she matriculates, and while parts of her current self will be evident in that person, she may evolve to someone quite different from what you expect.
BUT, with that said, it is a good idea to have a “map” for the next few years that will help preserve and/or create options. When fall of senior year rolls around, there will be things that cannot be changed, so if your D thinks she’d like to submit an art supplement, she should have a plan to have it created by then. That may involve looking at how she’s spending her breaks between now and then or her course selections.
On that note, if I were an AO, I might find it odd that a kid who submitted an art supplement had no interest in taking (AP) art, so I do think there’s value in having her explore her feelings about art in general. Why did it interest her in the first place and why does it no longer? Does she feel like she needs to be more “purposeful”? That she struggles with creativity? That being good at it created pressure or expectations? Her answers to these questions might also help her understand why she is currently enthused about science and give her a sense of whether that passion is sustainable.
I would also suggest that she think about the intersection of her art and science talents. The buzzword has gone from the STEM to STEAM, and there are a lot of academic disciplines in which art and STEM are both important (and not just the obvious ones, like architecture.) She may feel like she has to choose, and in fact, she may not need to do so. From what you’ve said, though, she prefers to choose.
It strikes me that while she is clearly multi-talented, she may not actually have any desire to be well-rounded in a traditional sense. At least for now, she doesn’t want to be a scientist who is an artist. She simply wants to be a scientist. She used to be an artist. She is a serial monogamist when it comes to these passions. There is nothing wrong with this, and if she continues to prefer to immerse herself in one thing at a time, that may provide her with some good direction on college choices when the time comes to formulate a list. Some places are great for the kid who wants to be a jack of all trades. Others are great for a kid who wants to be a master of one. I fully agree that the college counselors at her excellent BS will be very helpful with this.
While she seems quite devoted to her new-found love of science, I would continue to encourage her to stretch herself just so that she has the opportunities to encounter things that might spur her thinking or ignite new passions. Taking classes is only one way of interacting with the world and clearly one she excels at.
In any case, you should probably just toss the ideas out there for her to think about, perhaps discuss with you, and act on. It doesn’t sound like with her talents that she’s going to derail regardless of what she decides to do. The outcome may be different, perhaps, than what you would choose, but unlikely to be problematic.
@gardenstategal , I wanted this thread closed but you brought a lot of insights. Thanks.
There is a reason that she separates her art instead of mixing it with something. Until she started community college art courses, she had self taught art based on her own idea and some books she picked up. Each piece was a test for new ideas, materials and skills that she invented or adapted from somewhere. Each piece is culmination of a lot of creativity and problem solving on how to implement it. It’s fun because it is a pure creative endeavor and not because she would be happy just by holding a brush or rump of clay.
When you use the skill for something else, something useful, then you are moving toward the the area of crafting. If you are crafting something for a reason, as a job assignment, whether drawing birthday cards to donate or designing new sports car, it’s not enough creative endeavor that gives the artistic drive for her. It’s NOT fun. She would rather have a completely different career and keep her art as a hobby or a second career.
The synergy with another field, be that science or business, will come from the pure creativity and problem solving skills and not with artistic skills.
The way she figures, this kind of art cannot financially sustain a career, and she would rather completely separate pure art from a career where she also enjoys. Art is a lifelong hobby that she is doing as of now too. But her skills in the most recent new medium won’t reach admission presentable level by the time, and probably won’t help her otherwise art school level portfolio (or supplement). Also there is not enough hours in a day, or in a Summer, to do everything you want to do.
OP- if you’ve raised a kid who believes there aren’t enough hours in the day to pursue all the interesting and incredible and valuable things out there in the world, you can sit back and relax. That’s 90% of it.
Let her guidance counselor do the rest- with some infrastructure from you with your D on what your financial capacity and constraints are.
Kudos!