<p>My gut feeling is that she wants out of Penn because other posters have told her it’s really difficult to transfer from SEAS to M&T.</p>
<p>marite, I noticed those posts too. Hate to show my ignorance, but what do SEAS and M&T stand for? I meant to look at Penn’s site to determine what those majors were (assuming they are majors based on other’s who posted on that thread, whoses initials I understood:-).</p>
<p>d’smom, the OP hasn’t posted anything about $100K in loans. She hasn’t shared any details about the Penn award other than it is “not too horrible”. She has also stated that her parents are in debt and can’t contribute anything. We all know that colleges calculate financial aid based on parental income and assets, whether or not the parents can or will contribute. </p>
<p>Again, this board is full of kids who are willing to borrow $50 or $100K if they have to to attend their chosen schools. That they are willing doesn’t make it a wise or appropriate decision – but many students have no real choice. Their choice is to borrow to pay more than they can afford or forego their education, and so they take on the debt.</p>
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<p>Oh, can you please tell me where to find those calculators? Also, please tell me where the OP would enter in the noncustodial parent info on the form? (I’ve always felt that the whole step-parent thing really throws a wrench in the system, but if Penn has managed to put up an online calculator that clarifies that, I’m glad to know).</p>
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<p>I have 2 kids who have each attended college for 4 years. Between the two of them I have seen probably around 14 different financial aid awards. Some were better than others. Not a single one met my “need”, or even came close to it. </p>
<p>Lest you think that I’m just unreasonable – I always felt that my FAFSA EFC was quite reasonable, and I would have been happy to pay that anywhere. Generally, with private colleges, our annual contribution ranges from about $10,000- $15,000 above and beyond the FAFSA EFC. This is true even though my d. qualifies for a Pell grant.</p>
<p>Calmom, If the OP did not post about needing 100k I apologize, but i thought I had read that in an earlier post. But if she posted about it being “not too horrible” than that implies it is possible eh???</p>
<p>Again the parents signed the ED agreement along with the Guidance Counselor. Obviously you don’t have a problem with her scenario and we are just running in circles. I respectfully disagree with your opinion in that ED is not about making a wise or appropriate decision after you get to shop around. ED is to be used only when it’s your first choice and only if you can live with the financial aid package that they may offer you. If it’s “truly” impossible to live with than by all means get out, but don’t use the ED to benefit only your side. The OP is shopping and that is not right under the terms of the ED agreement.</p>
<p>Calmom, I am not disagreeing with you about the concept of need and that different schools offer differing amounts.</p>
<p>I am saying that declining an ED offer can be made if need from that institution isn’t met. I truly don’t believe that because Penn State offered a full-ride that means U Penn didn’t meet OP’s financial need. You seem to believe that it does.</p>
<p>Being able to compare packages is what all who apply RD (and non-binding EA) can and should do. In OP’s case she can compare, but that doesn’t mean U Penn didn’t meet financial need.</p>
<p>By the way, even if Penn’s calculator isn’t readily available, anyone applying ED should use the FAFSA calculator at a minimum to see what their EFC might be (of course based on the previous year’s numbers at time of application process) to determine if it is at all feasible to pay for that school if the bare minimum package is offered.</p>
<p>Applying ED on the basis that “need will never be met” and it is therefore easy to decline is just not kosher.</p>
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I disagree. Regardless, do you really think this student should take on debt rather than accept a full-ride offer because it is the “ethically” right thing to do? She should incur a debt of possibly $100,000 because of a strict interpretation of the ED agreement she signed? I can’t believe anyone would offer such ridiculous advice. We can only guess about her family’s finances, and clearly she should never have applied ED. But I find it hard to imagine that anyone, including Penn, would tell this girl she has to attend Penn and go into debt when a free alternative now exists.</p>
<p>actually annerkou, I don’t think anyone should take on that kind of debt, which is why I think no one should apply ED to a school where that kind of debt could be incurred. I think she can easily get out of the ED offer, if financial need wasn’t met.</p>
<p>And, I wasn’t suggesting that she attend U Penn in lieu of her free-ride. I was merely posting that receiving the free-ride doesn’t mean U Penn failed to meet financial need. I agree U Penn won’t hold her to that though. </p>
<p>The issue becomes murky though if she doesn’t withdraw the MIT app. Granted, if U Penn says okay…we understand you have a free-ride, we won’t hold you to the offer…she is now not obligated to U Penn’s ED…what if MIT offers the same financial package as U Penn (since more than likely it too is based on their determination of need)? </p>
<p>What if she ends up accepting MIT’s offer and not the full-ride? </p>
<p>Who knows what she will do. But those of us who are cynical and think it isn’t truly a money issue fear she is using the full-ride to get out of the ED “contract” but will accept M.I.T even with a similar financial aide package since it “seems” she desires that more…</p>
<p>I probably wouldn’t feel this way if on the M.I.T thread she said she had a full-ride offer and that she knew she couldn’t afford M.I.T</p>
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We found that FAFSA calculator had no relation at all to what private schools offer using their own institutional methods.</p>
<p>Where does anyone get the $100k amount? I get it. I was the one who posted that I still have $100k of debt to pay down because I chose to pay full fare for my two kids instead of going after full rides or partial merit money. I did not ask for financial aid for either of them.</p>
<p>Do schools actually expect people with declared financial need to cough up $100k?</p>
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Yes, definitely.</p>
<p>regarding post #411 Schools expect the parents to be responsible for their child’s education. Understanding that people have different incomes, colleges offer FA to help meet the need of what is supposedly “demonstrated need”. Colleges have every right to expect parents to take out loans for their kids education. Many people take out loans for 40-60k for one auto, but shrug at taking out loans for their kids educations. We know nothing about the OP’s real situation other than the OP said “not too horrible”. One can draw a conclusion that if it’s not too horrible, than it’s possible for the OP to attend. I don’t think anyone is giving the OP bad advice here. This has been healthy discussion from both sides and the OP will do what the OP will do. I believe Penn will let the OP out, but hopefully the OP learned a lesson about entering into agreements.</p>
<p>Aboslutely schools can expect some families to pay $100,000. I can use myself as an example. My husband and I own our home (no more mortage). It has appreciated greatly in the almost 30 years we’ve owned it. It’s an asset. We would never, ever consider taking out another mortgage at this point in our lives (H is retired, I’m retired soon) totally non-negotiable as far as we’re concerned, but colleges that utilize CSS could look at our home as a potential source of financing for college. If a college cost $50,000 it is totally conceivable that they would look at us on “paper” and figure that we could pay even if it meant re-mortgaging the house or tapping non-shelted retirement assets. It could add up to $100,000 pretty darn fast. Financially feasible means all kinds of different things to all kinds of people. It matters not if we have a kid that can shoot the moon as far as college choices, but if it isn’t in the budget it isn’t going to happen. Different people have different tolerances and that’s why we don’t let the kids to ED.</p>
<p>I understand that FAFSA isn’t similar to what private schools do, which is why I said, “at a minimum” to get an indication of what might be expected.</p>
<p>When my son was thinking about applying ED to a school, we were clearly told that if we were looking for aid then he should NOT apply ED. It is a case of ethical integrity. Some of you should read the recent threads from some of the colleges and see how devastated some of the kids were when they were not offered acceptances at their first choice schools where they had applied ED. It seems to me that you should have known that finances were a problem before you applied ED!</p>
<p>Good point momofthreeboys. </p>
<p>We decided to do ED, but we knew the risks involved. We knew ahead of time what we were gaining by doing ED and what we were giving up. The guidance counselors are very well educated in this department and told us everything as well as the college did. For us we are happy that we did this. Will curiosity be there? Sure, but S got into his number one school by applying ED(I think he definitely would have gotten in anyway) and now he can enjoy the rest of his senior year. I also had a very good conversation with the financial aid department at the college and understood what I was getting into.</p>
<p>3321, in case you are still interested: SEAS is engineering at Penn, M & T is a combined engineering and business degree (management and technology, I think). There are very few slots for incoming freshmen in M & T, maybe only about 70, and as Marite pointed out, it is hard to transfer into.</p>
<p>SEAS: School of Engineering and Applied Sciences</p>
<p>M & T: The Jerome Fisher Program in Management and Technology</p>
<p>Marite, based on the FA offers we saw with one kid in school vs. EFC (and two kids starting in the fall), it would be VERY easy to wind up with $100k in college debt before we are finished putting both kids through school.</p>
<p>We took out loans closer to $200k for our kids’ education (now still over $100k), so I know that people can expect to borrow that much. But we did so knowing we could pay the loans back. As with mortgages, we could pay them back faster than expected if we so wished.</p>
<p>My question really had to do with people with lower incomes than we have for whom incurring large debt would be a real strain, like having to dip into retirement income (not advised!). The OP mentioned “a big loan that my parents have to pay back.” If that is indeed the case, and Penn was not aware of this when making its offer, then it would be a legitimate reason to ask for the offer to be increased. And if Penn does not, and it constitutes a genuine hardship, then the ED can be broken “making it impossible to attend” being the operative phrase here. But I am still wondering about the “not too horrific” comment. As I said, I lived in England for a while; there, “not half bad” means “pretty good.” It does not mean perfect or most desirable. But a “pretty good” “not too horrific” finaid package does not seem to me a very valid reason to break ED.</p>
<p>With top schools having become so much more generous than they used to be, I have to wonder about the size of the package and the amount of debt the college thinks is reasonable for the OP’s family to shoulder.</p>