<p>Marite, no the school doesn’t have to make me feel comfortable. And I don’t have to take the school’s offer either.
I don’t have to Marite and it has nothing to do with ethics.</p>
<p>Now you’re telling me I get to have other people tell me what is affordable. That’s how people get into trouble, Marite.</p>
<p>Pensions, Marite…
Are future pensions considered when calculating financial aid?</p>
<p>“Affordable” is not an absolute number. It depends on the family.</p>
<p>dstark, the problem with your position is that it is completely inconsistent with the existing financial aid system at 100% of the colleges we are talking about. I believe some negotiation may be possible, although I agree with xiggi that it most often takes the form of submitting additional information and arguing that it matters. But the colleges do not provide “hard” financial aid offers until after the current year’s information is processed and all information is updated. So no one, in January, has a firm offer of specific financial aid. At most, they could have an agreement about how specific items are to be taken into account (e.g., one poster’s 1/3 inherited tenancy-in-common interest, which from the description is probably worth far less than the college assumed).</p>
<p>I understand that you don’t like that system of financial aid any more than you like the existence of ED – you think it is unfair and one-sided. It probably is. But it works for lots and lots of people, and provides really important protection to students whose families’ circumstances really do change for the worse. (A “hard numbers” contractual approach would presumably cut both ways.) In any event, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with agreeing on the basis of a system for calculating future financial aid, and that is effectively what happens today.</p>
<p>On the other side of the argument – people have been doing a lot of jabbering about legal agreements and enforceability. From my perspective, there is no fundamental reason why ED agreements should not be enforceable – the parties know what they are doing, it’s not an unreasonable bargain, the terms are clear enough, and any 17-year-old who is incapable of understanding it shouldn’t be worried about his ED admission to Penn.</p>
<p>But believing and assuming that these are enforceable agreements does not mean that they are enforceable by specific performance. I strongly doubt any public court would order specific performance – the kid must actually attend the college in question – as a remedy for breach here. From a public policy perspective, this would be a case for damages . . . which of course would be approximately $0.</p>
<p>If ED agreements mean anything, it’s because the applicants and the colleges take them seriously and self-enforce. That’s good, I think people should do that, even if substantively I have problems with ED. And they should resolve ambiguities in a way that honors their basic deal. For that reason, I really don’t have any problem with a kid saying , “Before the ED decision, I got this humongous merit scholarship offer from State U, and I really don’t want to take on $100,000 in debt even for Penn, my first choice.” Or even “I’ve been doing more thinking about debt, and now I understand that I really can’t afford Penn, as much as I love it.” As long as the kid says it promptly. </p>
<p>I do think keeping an MIT application alive after Penn’s ED acceptance is shady behavior. However, the timing here – MIT will make its EA decision before the student accepted by Penn has a chance to have reasonable FA questions answered – makes it pretty impossible to police the kind of strategic behavior that many people have accused the OP of doing. Realistically, I think the most Penn can ask for is a yes-no answer by January 1, and if at that point the OP has an MIT acceptance in her back pocket as well (but no firm MIT FA offer), so be it. Penn could, like Brown, have included in its ED agreement an undertaking not to apply EA anywhere else, too.</p>
<p>“dstark, the problem with your position is that it is completely inconsistent with the existing financial aid system at 100% of the colleges we are talking about. I believe some negotiation may be possible, although I agree with xiggi that it most often takes the form of submitting additional information and arguing that it matters. But the colleges do not provide “hard” financial aid offers until after the current year’s information is processed and all information is updated. So no one, in January, has a firm offer of specific financial aid. At most, they could have an agreement about how specific items are to be taken into account (e.g., one poster’s 1/3 inherited tenancy-in-common interest, which from the description is probably worth far less than the college assumed).”</p>
<p>RD applicants are allowed to negotiate.</p>
<p>The difference between RD and ED is that with RD I can negotiate with multiple schools and with ED, I can negotiate with one school. But I can negotiate.</p>
<p>And the negotiations can be percentage of this, percentage of that.</p>
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<p>You don’t have to–no one will hold a gun to your head-- but it does have to do with ethics if you walk away from a commitment. Again, no one held a gun to the OP’s head.</p>
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Precisely. With ED, you give up the advantage of comparing offers in return for a firm commitment on the part of the school. IF the offer makes attending impossible, then you can walk away. Not “less desirable” but “impossible.” I did not write the language, by the way. </p>
<p>I have no idea what is included in finaid calculations. I calculated that we could afford to pay full fares with loans and therefore did not apply for finaid (we did consider the impact this would have on our retirement income–probably less than the market tanking).</p>
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Yes, and I think that is the only way to prevent the situation the OP is in. </p>
<p>I’m still not sure that MIT would care about or investigate an ED acceptance that was turned down months earlier. From my point of view, that ED relationship with Penn is severed at the moment she turns it down. And as the system exists now, she is permitted to turn it down for financial reasons. This may not follow the spirit of ED, but that’s the reality. The only true gatekeeper at this time would be the HS GC.</p>
<p>The negative way to look at this is “gaming the system.” I would never advise a student to try it, but I kind of admire the OP for recognizing a huge loop-hole here. The fact is that EA and ED acceptances do overlap and a student could use it to their advantage.</p>
<p>Marite, right, so the decision was easy for you. </p>
<p>And it might be an ethical decision for you not to take ED, but it isn’t for me. because the cost is unknown. I read what Penn says about financial aid, and I have no idea what I would have to pay if I was in the OPs situation. Therefore, I don’t see the commitment. If I saw the commitment, i might fell differently. But I don’t.</p>
<p>These decisions are not that easy for others. . A wrong move can really hurt some families.</p>
<p>I’d like to know if pensions are included because pensions change the financial situation of a family. I’m more likely to take out loans if I had a pension. Maybe. Maybe not.</p>
<p>“With ED, you give up the advantage of comparing offers in return for a firm commitment on the part of the school. IF the offer makes attending impossible, then you can walk away. Not “less desirable” but “impossible.” I did not write the language, by the way.”</p>
<p>You give up the advantage of comparing offers, but you do get to negotiate with the ED school.</p>
<p>Indeed, you do!</p>
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<p>And that’s why ED should not be used lightly. </p>
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<p>I don’t get your logic. Since I could pay full fare (with loans), surely, it would make sense for my Ss financially to apply ED? We would not have walked away from a commitment because we found the finaid package unappealing!</p>
<p>S1 did not use ED because he was not sure about his eventual school choice which has not only ED I but also ED II.</p>
<p>No, you don’t get my logic. :)</p>
<p>“Since I could pay full fare (with loans), surely, it would make sense for my Ss financially to apply ED? We would not have walked away from a commitment because we found the finaid package unappealing!”</p>
<p>I don’t see the commitment without knowing how much the financial aid is. (And JHS, the calculations could be based on percentage of income, which assets are included in the calculations and the percentages used, etc.).</p>
<p>So I don’t see ED as a commitment for those needing a financial package. </p>
<p>So I don’t see any ethics involved until the financial aid package is agreed upon. Then…ethics.</p>
<p>I’m not talking about people who don’t need aid.</p>
<p>"What if your early decision college does not offer you enough financial aid?
“If the financial aid package is insufficient, we will release the early-decision-admitted student from the Early Decision obligation,” says Richard C. Vos, vice president and dean of admission and financial aid at Claremont McKenna College (CA). “If the initial aid offer in mid-December is seen as inadequate, we encourage the family to have a conversation with our financial aid director. That process almost always resolves the problem.”</p>
<p>[Early</a> Decision and Early Action: Does the Early Bird Get the Worm?](<a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/steps/Articles/Pages/EDEA.aspx]Early”>http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/steps/Articles/Pages/EDEA.aspx)</p>
<p>"Do Early Application Plans Affect Financial Aid?
If you need financial aid, you’ll probably need to complete a CSS Profile or the college’s institutional form at about the same time as the early decision application. The college financial aid office can then send you a tentative financial aid package (tentative until you can send the college your tax return and other supporting documentation). Each college does this a little differently, so check with the financial aid office or admission office of the college to be certain of their procedures.</p>
<p>What if your early decision college does not offer you enough financial aid?
“If the financial aid package is insufficient, we will release the early-decision-admitted student from the Early Decision obligation,” says Richard C. Vos, vice president and dean of admission and financial aid at Claremont McKenna College (CA). “If the initial aid offer in mid-December is seen as inadequate, we encourage the family to have a conversation with our financial aid director. That process almost always resolves the problem.”</p>
<p>However, Early Decision may not be the best choice if you want to compare financial aid packages between colleges.</p>
<p>“My advice to students is this: If you want the chance to compare aid packages, don’t apply early decision,” says Christopher Hooker-Haring, dean of admission and financial aid at Muhlenberg College ¶. “Go regular decision and then line your aid packages up in the spring and see what the results are.”</p>
<p>Dstark, doesn’t your example of CMC go to the heart of the real issue, namely having clear directions offered by the school? </p>
<p>Fwiw, you might also consider that the impact of ED admissions is not universal … not for schools and not for students. Simply stated, the reliance on ED to fill a class and the reliance by students on higher acceptance numbers (or even lower admission standards) should be part of any discussions when “ethics” are debated.</p>
<p>In a way, trying to take advantage of the higher acceptance rates and hiding behind a financial aid fig leave to still be able to compare competing packages is what does not seem to pass the proverbial smell test. </p>
<p>And, this of course varies from school to school, and does not seem THAT relevant at schools where the admission rates do not offer a tremendous advantage to ED applicants. In this regard, Penn and CMC are worlds … apart.</p>
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<p>BRAVO Deja, Bravo. I too agree with you. It plain disgusts me to see several members here supporting and endorsing unethical, shady behavior. The OP is acting unethically with her MIT EA application still active - and it would only serve her right that MIT and Penn both find out and both reject her.</p>
<p>Some may find that harsh but I really don’t care. I would rather be called harsh than to teach, enable and reward unethical practices</p>
<p>You are dead wrong berryberry. The OP has not done one thing wrong that anyone knows of…yet. You have unfortunately presumed something that does not exist at this moment in time. Unless you know her personally you don’t know anything and neither does anyone else posting on this forum. All discussions have been speculative.</p>
<p>"Dstark, doesn’t your example of CMC go to the heart of the real issue, namely having clear directions offered by the school? "</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>And also the issue that you get to negotiate your ED offer.</p>
<p>And yes, you don’t get to comparison shop under ED. You are allowed to apply to RD schools and sometimes EA schools too under ED. And if you get an answer from a RD school first…</p>
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<p>There has been a lively discussion, most of it respectful. I haven’t seen anybody supporting and endorsing unethical, shady behavior. There have been good faith genuine disagreements about what is ethical and appropriate, but there have been too many personal attacks. </p>
<p>Feel free to disagree. Don’t feel free to accuse. </p>
<p>I’m afraid this girl, the OP, may have been hurt by this thread. </p>
<p>I think it’s appropriate to repost the CC Terms of Service with respect to Courtesy and General Behavior. </p>
<p>Courtesy. At College Confidential, we expect discussion to be courteous even when disagreement may be vigorous. When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It’s fine to disagree with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person. Also, note that messages express the thoughts of the writers, not the community, its owners, staff, or moderators. Visitors who post discourteous messages will be warned; repeat offenders will lose posting rights.</p>
<p>General Behavior. Our forum is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place, and one in which members can post without their motives, intelligence, or other personal characteristics being questioned by others. Members who post in a manner that makes other members unwelcome or uncomfortable, or who conduct themselves in a manner in any way detrimental to the College Confidential community, will lose posting privileges.</p>
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<p>Bingo! ten chars.</p>
<p>Yes. Marite. I’m not sure who is arguing with you on this point. </p>
<p>I think nobody. :)</p>
<p>dstark, I would point out that nowhere in the material you quoted does anyone suggest that “you get to negotiate your ED [financial aid] offer”. They say, “Call us before you decline because it isn’t feasible. Usually we can work out problems.” They say, “If you want to comparison shop, do not apply ED.”</p>
<p>While I do know of situations where there has been a straight-out negotiation of financial aid, I think it’s relatively rare, and limited to a meeting-meaningful-competition scenario (e.g., Harvard will meet Yale’s offer, but not Penn’s, much less Whatever U). The more common form of discussion of which I am aware may feel like negotiation to the student’s family, but from the college’s standpoint is really administrative adjudication: “Yes, we agree that your MLB signing bonus should be amortized over the four years of your contract rather than taken into account in the first year, so your EFC for this year is only $10.3 million, not $15.7 million.”</p>
<p>JHS, you have got to be kidding…</p>
<p>That’s a negotiation to me.</p>
<p>You call it whatever you want. A discussion…better?</p>
<p>And your mlb example is a negotiation too. ;)</p>
<p>Feel free to have CC change my posts and change the word negotiation to discussion.</p>
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<p>Bingo. 10 char</p>