<p>I think the whole “burden of proof” language is legally bogus – or at least fits within the category of sloppy and inaccurate use of language. The only time “burden of proof” comes into play is in a court of law, where the burden of proof is generally on whoever brings the lawsuit. There is nothing in the ED contract itself that specifies burden of proof.</p>
<p>fireand rain-- in your quote: “If you are an early decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have recieved notification about financial aid.”</p>
<p>Implied: you can choose not to attend due to financial reasons. Read Calmom’s above post for further clarification of this point. Also, dstark has posted from the UPenn ED agreement, which states all other applications must be withdrawn AFTER the finaid has been accepted by Jan. 1. In this case. It is difficult to make broad generalizations since all the agreements are somehow not the same…no? Which is why, I think, the thread got so long. Nobody actually KNOWS. I think it would have been excellent to hear the actual outcome from the OP</p>
<p>At yet once again thank you and I agree with you CRD on your last several posts. I think the poster is probably reading and maybe when everything settles she will feel comfortable enough to come back and share her decisions. It’s an epic thread with volumes of interesting information though I’m sure the OP is wishing she had never ever come “over here” to the parent forum.</p>
LOL!!! That’s a very funny image! This is a Parent Forum, and if the OP couldn’t handle the answers, she shouldn’t have come here and asked. Did she really think everyone would condone her actions? And notice how she didn’t tell the whole story (her anxiously waiting for her MIT EA decision) until someone pointed it out. </p>
<p>
Xiggi, excellent phrasing! </p>
<p>I’m still not understanding why OP should have been able to apply ED and then compare competing packages, which is what some here apparently think she should be able to do. I see a big problem with that. Someone admired OP for finding a “loophole.” </p>
<p>And who even knows if she was going to contact UPenn. My understanding of her posts is that she would rather go to MIT. At least, one doesn’t post in the MIT forum about how anxious one is to hear their EA decision after hearing they are accepted to UPenn ED if they are really interested in in UPenn. And then there were the posts about wanting to transfer within UPenn. Sounds to me like she has buyer’s remorse. It also sounded to me like she had moved on from UPenn.</p>
<p>In this case, the OP has stated her intention to attend a public U. that has offered a full ride merit award. She didn’t state which public U. that is, but I think it’s safe to assume that it is from a university that would not be considered a peer institution of Penn (i.e., lower ranked) – and it is improbable that the public university has any agreements to honor ED agreements. </p>
<p>The whole MIT thing is a red herring, because there is no indication whatsoever that the student would attend MIT over the free-ride public, absent a financial aid award comparable to to the public, and she has not yet been accepted, much less been offered any financial aid. </p>
<p>But the point is, there is no particular indication that she NEEDS a “release” – as there is no evidence that she intends to apply to other private schools in the future.</p>
<p>LOL! I highly doubt she had any clue what she was letting herself in for. CC has a few contentious subjects, and this is def. one of them. She just stepped on a CC landmine…there aren’t that many. This and something to remain nameless seem to be the sweet spots…for an uproar!</p>
<p>I never thought of CC having landmines, but some topics definitely qualify! </p>
<p>Maybe there should be a sticky at the top of the Parents Forum called “Parents Forum Landmine List–Bring up these topics only if you are ready to hunker down in a bunker when the lead starts flying.”</p>
<p>An update to the melodrama of the original poster. Not only has she arranged to have all of her posts on the MIT CC forum deleted, but on the UPenn CC forum, she spent the weekend asking if it was possible to change schools within UPenn from the one that she was ED accepted (engineering, I believe) into a different one (business, I believe), which is likely harder to gain entrance, even on ED. She has already asserted that she plans to apply to change schools after her first year at UPenn (as part of her grand scheme). Clearly, OP is not naive, but a very clever gamester, and a future main street to wall street ponzi schemer.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, all of the ED and FA issues discussed in this thread are likely of interest to many people other than our gamester, RedBlueBeaver.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this was posted earlier, but I just came across a pdf on financial aid from that discusses essentially an appeal of the financial aid package: </p>
<p>“Reevaluation of Financial Assistance If, after a careful review of this booklet, you think that your resources are insufficient for you to attend Penn, you may request a reevaluation. It may not be possible for us to adjust your aid, but we can consider requests for reevaluation of the expected family contribution when:
Your family has experienced a change in financial circumstances, such as unemployment, recent divorce or separation, or death in the family or Your family has extenuating circumstances that distinguish them from other families of similar income and characteristics, and were not considered in the initial determination.
To request a reevaluation, contact our office for an Application for Reevaluation.”</p>
<p>Meant to add, I hope OP did contact Penn to see if her financial aid could be changed. It would be very interesting to hear what does happen, and where she ends up.</p>
<p>ConCerndDad – has it occured to you that it is possible that her questions about changing schools at Penn were prompted by her looking seriously at the PUBLIC, free-ride school? Maybe she never seriously considered Free Ride U because of its lack of prestige and low ranking, but when they sent her the free-ride merit offer, it ALSO came with a letter explaining all the wonderful things she could do at Free Ride U. (Priority registration, honors thesis, research stipend, free parking – and all the other bells and whistles that public U’s tend to throw in with these sort of offers). </p>
<p>So now for the first time she’s taking a hard look at what her academic options are at Penn – and how that compares to her academic options at Free Ride U. – and she’s realizing that she might be locked in to one program at Penn, whereas Free Ride U. will let her freely transfer among programs. Or maybe the problem is that Free Ride U. won’t let her out of their single-track engineering program, but before she turns them down for that reason, she has realized that Penn may not be any better.</p>
<p>calmom, I think your legal analysis is a little off base. You don’t need specific performance or liquidated damages to have an enforceable contract. You don’t need a definite price, either, just a reasonably specific agreement as to how to determine price in the future. This is far from a contract of adhesion – Absolutely nothing is compelling an applicant to apply ED, and in fact most applicants don’t apply ED. Other colleges offer different terms. These terms are completely central to the “ED bargain”; it’s not some collateral issue like agreeing to arbitration. Nor is it unconscionable – the basic trade of advance commitment for preferential treatment, with a financial need out, is far from an unreasonable bargain.</p>
<p>This is basically a very simple requirements contract. I agree to make you the exclusive supplier of my college education needs. You guarantee preferential access to educational goods. We agree on a mechanism for price determinations and adjustments as I place orders for education, which is basically your standard rate plus a formula discount that you will calculate and give me a hearing on if I disagree with the application. I understand that I might do better in the spot market if I hold out, but guaranteeing that supply from a first-rate supplier is also important to me.</p>
<p>But in the end you were just repeating my point – enforcing this in court would be silly, and it’s not going to happen. (Unless, perhaps, a college yanks someone’s admission, and the applicant sues for admission or damages. In which case I absolutely do believe that a court would enforce it – by upholding the withdrawal of admission – if the facts showed that the applicant had breached.) The fact that it’s not going to wind up in court, however, doesn’t mean that it’s not an agreement and ought not to be performed.</p>
<p>And regarding Xiggi’s post we all know that the kids “want to know” if they would have gotten in. With ED and EA acceptances happening simulatenously it just adds to the confusion. We have no knowledge that the OP is any different and her “interest” in MIT was simply to know if she could get in and not. I try not to read too much into kid posts. This chain of events happened in a very short period of time. Alot of these acceptances are happening by website and equally some parents have posted that they are reluctant to have their kids press the button to cancel other apps until the ED sends something in writing because of past incidents of “oops” when things are posted to the net or sent via e-mail. All of this is reasonable and understandable.</p>
<p>As a fellow financially challenged student who was just admitted under an ED plan, I feel like I have to say a few things. </p>
<p>I think it’s rather unfair to assume anyone knows the details of the OP’s financial situation. For many families today, college anywhere isn’t exactly “possible” or “affordable.” Although students can hope for a lot of money from state schools, they also do not have many of the resources as the older, Ivy-League etc colleges they may apply ED to. Financial aid becomes even more stressful when parents already have debt or other credit problems (my parents declared bankruptcy in 2002 and loans were a big concern for us). It would be entirely foolish of the OP to not pursue other options as long as they weren’t in violation with the ED contract. </p>
<p>Saying that financial aid applicants should just forgo applying Early Decision is also unfair and somewhat rude. Early Decision is encouraged when a student knows a school is their top choice, and if schools only wanted the rich, guaranteed full-pay candidates to apply, the financial backdoor wouldn’t exist. </p>
<p>For my family, there wasn’t one amount where we could say “yes, that’s possible!” or anything like that. We didn’t know how much my college would offer me, we could only hope they’d cover almost all of the cost. It seems OP wasn’t as lucky with UPenn as I was with my school and that happens; schools can rarely meet all of the demonstrated need. However, this doesn’t mean students who are relying on aid shouldn’t apply Early Decision to their top schools, or if they do, cultivate other options. And none of us should pretend to know the extent of OP’s financial situation.</p>
<p>Yes, I don’t think there will be any difficulty in proving a financial hardship and obtaining a release if her FA package still results in the family needing to take on a lot of debt. Penn cannot and will not force her to do that and she should be legitimately released from the ED contract. If she obtains an official release, she has not reneged on the agreement and she is free to accept any other school, including MIT. </p>
<p>
You may not think this is fair, or moral, but what this girl is doing is perfectly legal within the system as it currently exists. You don’t need to withdraw applications until you have been notified about financial aid, you don’t have to accept the financial aid you are offered, and IF you obtain a release, you are free to accept other schools. </p>
<p>I think the OP has found an interesting loop-hole here. I don’t care to judge the ethics or morals, but as the system currently stands, I see no violation on her part.</p>
<p>Isn’t this forum about offering helpful or useful advice?</p>
<p>Would you REALLY recommend to this student --or any other for that matter-- to not seek to obtain a release from her commitment? Would you recomment to this student to ignore the possible consequences of not obtaining a release? </p>
<p>If the facts stated by the OP are genuine, would it not be easier to cover all your bases and notify Penn that the aid is not adequate and that a better option exists at her state school? For all that has been shared over the years on CC, I do not think that anyone would think that Penn would not release the student with this set of circumstances, especially if the notification is made before the full commitment date. </p>
<p>Perhaps, I am naive here, but I still believe that much is to be gained from being completely truthful with the schools. You never know, this student might decide to seek a transfer in later years or even a graduation school admission at Penn. </p>
<p>Why not do the right thing when you have the opportunity?</p>
We could title the thread: Having a Boring Day?</p>