<p>I’m interested in hearing about the drinking culture as well, at Centre as well as other small LAC’s. I worry that when the schools are small and rural, there might not be a lot of other things to do. Drinking will happen, of course, but it is helpful when there are many other fun options as well.</p>
<p>I’ve tried to stay out of this food fight, sevmom, but I feel compelled to point out that the conversation was about CTCLs until a certain poster decided to throw rocks at parents who would be so clueless as to actually send their kids to one of them.</p>
<p>Totally understand your point, annasdad. I tried to stay out of it myself for quite awhile . Hopefully, things here will get back on track. There are lots of great schools out there . Not one size fits all.</p>
<p>vandygrad, I can only speak for my D’s college re the drinking culture. It is indeed small and rural, and the school is very aware that this could be a setup for drinking. But there are forces which counteract this. First, like most LACs, it is a residential college, meaning that virtually all students live on campus for four years, which fosters a sense of community that isn’t possible for a large public school. This, combined with the small size, means that everyone knows everyone else and problems of all kinds come to the attention of other students as well as advisors and administration. Students with problems are not likely to fall through the cracks.</p>
<p>Second, the college makes a real effort to have lots and lots of activities on campus. Most students are involved in some kind of sport, club, or activity. There are concerts, lectures, theater presentations, dance shows, festivals, community service outings, and visiting famous guests. There’s something going on all the time.</p>
<p>Third – and this is a change from my own college days – there’s lots of support for non-indulgers. There’s an entire dorm for “wellness” students; they must sign a contract that they will not drink, drug, or smoke. Of course, there are students who drink, a few to excess, but overall the peer pressure to drink just isn’t there like it was at my Ginormous State U.</p>
<p>I would agree with LasMa’s assessment, at least from what I know so far. Several of the schools on the list are very strict when it comes to alcohol; others are less so, but as LasMa said, offer such a range of activities that there is far more to do than just drink. Also, without the dominant sports culture that large universities have, one whole ritual–the tailgating/beer pong before games, the victorious or consolatory drinking after–simply doesn’t exist.</p>
<p>annasdad and sevmom, thanks for trying to keep things on track. In a way, the poster in question did the rest of us parents, and the CTCL schools, a favor–because he/she allowed us to respond point by point to the misconceptions and stereotypes a lot of people have about CTNHO (colleges they’ve never heard of 
). My kids’ own high school is very status-conscious, with a lot of parents from the Ivies and other “elite” east coast schools (plus of course Stanford, Chicago, etc.). In general, it is amazing to me how few kids from my son’s graduating class are going to small colleges of any kind. I have had several parents whose kids have accepted spots at large universities say wistfully that they wish their children had considered smaller colleges with more personal attention, like my son will be getting at his CTCL school–but the small schools just don’t have the awareness that larger schools do, so they aren’t even on the radar when they are making their lists of places to apply to. Every year a handful of kids will drop out of the “brand-name” universities they got into–Stanford, NYU, Tulane–and move back home. It’s easy to get lost at big schools, especially when the helicopter parents aren’t on hand to help navigate the challenges of college life as they did for their kids between preschool and high school.</p>
<p>I’ve noticed the same thing, Sally, at my D’s high school. There’s a high percentage of immigrant kids, and it seems their parents are really focused on bigger schools, especially high-prestige bigger schools. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I think it’s in the best interest of every kid to look seriously at a range of schools.</p>
<p>My D, for example; when we asked her a year ago where she wanted to go to college, her number one criterion was “big school,” her number two “in a big city,” number three, “not a lot of gen ed requirements.” Her first choice was UI-Chicago. But as we visited schools of different kinds, she was really taken with the atmosphere at several LACs and small universities, and decided those were for her. She would up not even applying to UI-Chicago (she did apply to UIUC and several private research universities, but didn’t get into any of them; she would not have gone to UIUC even had she got in, probably would have gone to Rochester or Case had she gotten in and it been financially feasible). The three schools that we went down to the wire with in the last week of April ranged in size from 2000 to 6000. She wound up choosing the largest of those, but not because of its size - and it’s in a town of 17,000 - and the most “liberal arts” of the group in terms of required courses.</p>
<p>My daughter went to large public schools for elementary and middle school (I mean LARGE - 1100 students in her K-5 elementary school), and then went to a much smaller private school for high school. She loved the small classes and small community of the high school, and appreciated it more than many of her classmates who had been there K-12.</p>
<p>So when it came time to look at colleges, we toured a few from huge to tiny, and she was appalled by the large schools and attracted to the small, intimate schools. The idea of going to a school with 15,000 or 30,000 students just had no appeal for her at all. The idea of sitting in a lecture hall with 50 or 100 or more students turned her off completely. (With coaxing, she was able to accept the idea of a large public school as a safety, so long as there was an honors college that would keep her in a smaller community and in smaller classes.)</p>
<p>Her search naturally led to CTCL schools, and in fact her final decision came down to Rhodes vs. Agnes Scott.</p>
<p>Small LAC are probably more popular/visible at her school than what some of you are describing. After Alabama, Auburn, and Vandy, the most popular colleges for her peers are probably Birmingham Southern and Sewanee.</p>
<p>Vandygrad, I too was very concerned about campus drinking cultures as we looked at both large and small schools. My S in very intelligent, but not nerdy, he has a bit of a “preppy” streak. He didn’t go to prep school, so what I mean is that he really likes sports, bonds closely with his male friends and, at least as a senior in high school, was a little overly concerned with being cool. My concern was that if there was a predominate culture of “drinking is the only way to have fun” on campus, he’d be right there with them. He was not open to looking at schools with a religious bent, or overly strict campus policies. </p>
<p>In the end we were only looking at schools with 2500 (or less) students because we wanted all the benefits of personal attention in the classroom. We saw a lot of campuses and discovered each small LAC has a personality, you can’t generalize that rural and small will mean crazy drinking, it’s important to investigate, overnight visits are great for this. The type of students who attend, the policies of the school, the alternative activities offered, the proximity to a town, the demands of the curriculum, and many more factors contribute to the prevailing attitudes about how to have fun.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the feedback on drinking and smaller LACs. Does anyone know anything or have hearsay on Wooster, OWU, Denison, Furman, St. Olaf or Case. I have heard that even though St O is a “dry” campus, that drinking does happen there and sometimes to excess. I don’t know if it is a lot of kids, some, or just a few.</p>
<p>^ So would you think less of “dry” St. O if we report drinking? With few (if any) exceptions, all colleges experience drinking. I think making it an important issue will be frustrating for you. :(</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My youngest went to rural public schools for elementary and middle school, then to a private school. This high school is a fairly status-conscious place that only graduates about 125 students/year, but virtually all of them are college-bound. These are some of the CTCLs and other LACs attended by graduates in the past 5 years:</p>
<p>Allegheny, Amherst, Bard, Bates, Bennington, Bryn Mawr, Clark, Colby, College of Wooster, Colorado College, Connecticut College, Davidson, Dickinson, Earlham, Eckerd, Eugene Lang, Evergreen State, Gettysburg, Goucher, Guilford, Hampshire, Haverford, Juniata, Kalamazoo, Knox, Lewis & Clark, Marlboro, Middlebury, Mills, Muhlenberg, Oberlin, Reed, Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore, Smith, Swarthmore, Trinity (Hartford), Union College, Ursinus, Vassar, Warren Wilson, Wellesley, Wesleyan (CT).</p>
<p>Check the college matriculation lists at some of the country’s more famous (and presumably status-conscious) private high schools. LACs are well-represented.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.andover.edu/ACADEMICS/COLLEGECOUNSELING/Pages/SchoolProfileCollegeMatriculations.aspx]Phillips”>http://www.andover.edu/ACADEMICS/COLLEGECOUNSELING/Pages/SchoolProfileCollegeMatriculations.aspx]Phillips</a> Academy: College Matriculations<a href=“George%20W.%20Bush%20went%20to%20Andover”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.choate.edu/academics/academics_college_matriculations.aspx]Choate”>http://www.choate.edu/academics/academics_college_matriculations.aspx]Choate</a> Rosemary Hall: College Matriculations<a href=“JFK%20went%20to%20Choate”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.sps.edu/podium/default.aspx?t=6543]St”>http://www.sps.edu/podium/default.aspx?t=6543]St</a>. Paul’s School: College Matriculations<a href=“John%20Kerry%20went%20to%20St%20Paul’s”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.stalbansschool.org/page.aspx?pid=722]St”>http://www.stalbansschool.org/page.aspx?pid=722]St</a>. Albans School: College Matriculations<a href=“Al%20Gore%20went%20to%20St.%20Albans”>/url</a></p>
<p>vandygrad, I think vonlost is right. St. Olaf is a pretty straight-laced environment, but I am sure alcohol can be found if someone is looking for it. I don’t think it’s a big part of the culture at all. It’s a fantastic school. Please feel free to PM me if you have specific questions–I know several families with kids there and I would be happy to try to track down more information for you.</p>
<p>Just a pop in to tell the posters who report anecdotes of big schools kids dropping out and coming home in larger numbers than CTCL schools that the statistics don’t bear this out. Yes, UW-Madison has its problems, but its graduation rate is as good as most CTCL schools - and U-Va’s first year retention rate and four year graduation rate is higher than every single CTCL school out there. Every one of them.</p>
<p>Just want to say something about kids who choose LACs - THEY ARE AWESOME!!! I’ve been talking to my new classmates on Facebook and they are so cool! They’re funny and smart, open and sarcastic…I love it!</p>
<p>My HS sends a couple kids to UMich every year, but that’s about it for “prestige”. One girl who graduated last year is at Vassar, however. How she found Vassar, I have no idea!! She loves it there and I’m happy for her.</p>
<p>UVA also has fewer students who are recipients of Pell grants than every single CTCL school out there. Every one of them.</p>
<p>hudsonvalley51-</p>
<p>U-Va also has better students and need blind admissions and guarantees 100% percent of demonstrated need for students needing aid, all of which probably has more to do with its graduation rates being higher than it having a lower number of Pell Grant recipients. In any event, you missed the point, which isn’t WHY the graduate rate is better, but whether it is better. </p>
<p>But let’s take U-Va completely out of the equation, shall we? The dreaded US News publishes a list of the 100 colleges with the best four-year graduation rates. Only six of the 41 CTCL make that list; the highest on the list is Centre College, at number 42, followed by (in order) Denison, St Olaf, Whitman, Wheaton (IL), and Kalamazoo. </p>
<p>A poster has suggested anecdotally that students from Stanford, NYU, and Tulane are dropping out in bigger numbers than CTCL students, but two of these three schools (Stanford and NYU) are both on the top 100 in best graduation rates (and ahead of 35 CTCLs) while the third, Tulane, has maintained a graduation rate at least as high as the typical CTLC school despite having had a pretty tough time over the last few years (to put in mildly). </p>
<p>My only point is that there’s nothing to suggest that the vast majority of CTCLs have retention/graduation rates that are any better than larger schools with the same caliber of students.</p>
<p>These rates are not meaningless, but I can’t imagine anyone choosing a school because of them. There are many far more significant differences between schools.</p>
<p>
If you read the title of this thread, you will see that UVa was never meant to be a part of this conversation at all. So, let’s stop bringing it up, shall we?</p>
<p>novaparent – I didn’t miss the point at all. You are smart enough to know that.</p>