<p>^ I’d guess that fit is more important at these unique schools than at other schools, so applicants should be more aware of these schools’ features.</p>
<p>My opinion on that is that many CTCL schools will give a chance to a kid with a less than stellar academic record. Some of those “chance kids” will succeed, while other may not. </p>
<p>Also, remember that most of these schools are quite small, so if a student changes his mind about his major, he may need to transfer to another school.</p>
<p>Finally, the out-of-the-way location of many of these schools may turn out to not be the best fit for some kids.</p>
<p>None of these reasons would have anything to deter students from choosing a CTCL school.</p>
<p>Maybe, but a high attrition rate should be a major factor when choosing a college, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Actually, a lack of majors & a remote location should also be taken into consideration when selecting a college, albeit to a lesser extent than first year attrition rate (which raises several issues).</p>
<p>What’s your version of “low”? Have you seen the average retention rates for most colleges in the U.S.? Not the tippy-top schools, but the average rate for all the others?</p>
<p>"… a high attrition rate should be a major factor when choosing a college …" as long as the reasons in each case are understood, and the number is properly compared.</p>
<p>@woody35: Unfortunately, any answer that I provide could be unreasonable to others since this is a subjective area. I get concerned when attrition falls below 89% & alarmed at 85% or lower.</p>
<p>Axelrod, I checked US News and World Report to see how many schools have retention rates of 90% and higher, there are 141, this includes national universities and liberal arts colleges. That’s a pretty small number when you consider there are 2,100+ four year colleges in this country, and several CTCLs are on that list; but it’s silly, not to mention impossible, to try fit everyone into those schools. Loren Pope just set out to show that there are other good options where people can get great educations and wonderful college experiences. I don’t imagine your kids will apply.</p>
<p>@vonlost: In my opinion, a high attrition rate alone raises concerns. Of course, “high” is relative so “and the number properly compared” seems redundant. Reasons in each case are not overly important, from my viewpoint, other than as a forewarning of a serious institutional problem (such as Antioch’s dire financial situation).</p>
<p>@bopambo: It would be 89% or higher based on my prior post. And, yes, I’m aware of the number of colleges & universities that keep 89% or more of their students. Several of the CTCL have retention rates in the low 80s & in the 70s.
An additional concern with the CTCL schools is that they are small with many in rural or semi-rural locations. In any respect, they are not commuter schools.</p>
<p>I’ve read CTCL 4 or 5 times & have been repeatedly unimpressed with the author’s trashing of many highly respected schools, unimpressed by the small number of students upon whom he based his opinions & a bit put-off by the aggressive salesmanship employed throughout the book. The effect on a few families that I know with CTCL students is that their very capable kids end up at one of these schools based primarily on financial aid considerations & not on fit. The parents tend to exhibit confidence in sending the student to a CTCL because of the salesmanship of the book’s contents at the expense of attending most selective colleges & universities & earning much better job opportunities. In short, it depends upon what one is seeking from college. For those needing specialized attention or handholding, fine.</p>
<p>Many of the CTCL schools are quite good academically ! Actually to lump them under one roof is difficult. Needless to say that some are academically rigorous and well known in academic circles ( Rhodes, Centre, Wabash, Whitman, Reed, St. Olaf etc as examples) while others are not as academically well respected. All of these colleges may be relatively unknown to the general public ( which was the primary reason for the book) but the similarities end there.</p>
<p>@Oura54: I agree.</p>
<p>We used CTCL, the book, to open our minds. As Oura54 says, the schools are not all the same. Yes, Colleges that Change Lives has become a marketing tool, welcome to America, I say more power to them. It is still necessary for the consumer to thoroughly research the product. As argued endlessly all over CC it may be worthwhile to go to a lesser known school for undergrad and save some resources for grad/medical/law school.</p>
<p>Axelrod, I’d like to make a few points:</p>
<p>First, the colleges in this group have been lumped together by a single author. They are, in many cases, very different from one another. They are absolutely not “one size fits all,” either in terms of the caliber of their student body, their programs, or their approach to undergraduate education. A student who likes one is not automatically going to like the other 39, but he or she might like a few others with similar attributes. </p>
<p>Second, you mention attrition rates. These vary widely. For instance, Reed College–arguably one of the best LACs in the country–is proudly touting its “best-ever” four-year graduation rate of 70%. That IS extremely low, although to me it is not unexpected. Reed is intense academically. And the type of kids who are drawn to such a school are often less mainstream to begin with–as is the case for a number of other CTCL schools. Many come from unconventional high school environments, including many who have been raised by “unschooling” parents. Any college would be an adjustment for a student with such a background, but it’s easy to see why they might put their faith in a CTCL or CTCL-type school. Also some of the colleges offer a unique program–as in the case of Cornell College, with its “one class at a time” curriculum–that isn’t for everybody. But for many, it probably takes GETTING THERE to find that out.</p>
<p>I have a hard time believing anyone uses the CTCL book or website as the sole consideration for choosing their child’s college. In most cases, I believe parents might use it as a starting point, just as they might use the search tool on this site or the USNWR rankings list or any other compilation of possible contenders. My son found a number of schools on the CTCL site that he wouldn’t have known of otherwise, and applied to several of them plus others with similar characteristics that were not on the list. It is not a be-all, end-all. </p>
<p>Fit–for my son, as for most students–was extremely important. We also paid particular attention to colleges with a peer group that had similar academic credentials to his, and spent additional time researching faculty (their areas of expertise and where they got their PhDs) and other criteria such as the number of Fulbright scholars they had produced and how much support students had for undergraduate research and other hands-on opportunities.</p>
<p>As for geography, yes, many of them are in out-of-the-way locations, but so are plenty of non-CTCL LACs and universities–including some considered among the best in the country (Williams, Amherst, Dartmouth, etc.). Schools on the East Coast have the benefit of high population density and, in many cases, longer history, so it stands to reason that more people have “heard of” Bucknell or a Wesleyan than Beloit or Whitman. But that doesn’t mean the better-known schools are “better.”</p>
<p>p.s. Sorry about the cross-post.</p>
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<p>If you have been on this site for a while, you should know that the myth of “better job opportunities” for students coming out of more prestigious institutions has been debated ad nauseum. With the exception of a few fields (investment banking and computer science come to mind), where one goes for undergrad makes absolutely no difference to one’s future prospects. Name recognition is pretty regional, anyway. Not to mention, a number of the CTCL schools have among the highest rates of admission into medical school and PhD programs, and they start working with students from the beginning of freshman year to prepare them for whatever they want to do next.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine why anyone would feel the need to read the CTCL book “4 or 5 times.” I certainly wouldn’t admit to it if I had. Some people probably chose CTCL schools for the reasons you suggest, Axelrod. Many don’t. My daughter chose her school in spite of its being in that book, and she chose it OVER better schools because it is where she wanted to be.</p>
<p>“For instance, Reed College–arguably one of the best LACs in the country–is proudly touting its “best-ever” four-year graduation rate of 70%.”</p>
<p>The CDS also lists schools’ six-year rate, which many consider a more realistic measure, considering the many schools (especially large state schools) where it’s difficult to get into required classes, causing graduation delays. In addition, some schools (like Reed) have a strong culture of taking a break for a semester or a year for an internship, to earn money, or to decompress.</p>
<p>One of the best things about books like CTCL is to make people aware that schools exist, to get them on radar!</p>
<p>“My daughter chose her school in spite of its being in that book, and she chose it OVER better schools because it is where she wanted to be.”</p>
<p>Then the school she chose is the better school, for her. :)</p>
<p>Both my sons view small size and remote location as distinct advantages of their schools. Others have different criteria. The kid who chooses Williams is obviously looking for a different experience than the kid who picks NYU.</p>
<p>“Better for her,” indeed, vonlost. I meant to put that first “better” in quotation marks to indicate as much!</p>
<p>My brother was a good, but not outstanding, student in high school. He attended the College of Wooster and eventually decided to major in geology, with a focus in climate change geology. Now, 10 years later, he has a PhD, had a paper that he was the first author on published in Science, and is now doing a postdoctoral program at Columbia. Wooster, and more specifically his advisor there, changed his life forever.</p>
<p>Can I ask a question about CTCL schools?
I’m an international student looking for american college. I think I have kinda good grade overall, but writing? nah- I’m completely science and math geek-asian stereotype.
I read CTCL schools are push really hard for writing. Can I… survive at this school?</p>