Did One of the COLLEGES THAT CHANGE LIVES Change YOUR Life (or Your Child's)?

College Search & Selection
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<p>I’m sorry, AdOfficer, but I just have to disagree with the notion that CTCL students are reclamation cases and WASP wanna-bes. My D and her college friends were not sub-par HS students who saw their LAC as their last chance to get on the education/career train. Coming into college, they were bright, curious, high-achieving, and eager to expand their horizons. They were already on the lifelong-learner track and saw this college, with its personal, non-competitive ethos, as the best way to continue down that track. There’s a large contingent of IB students at my D’s college; and yes, kids who were accepted at Ivies and preferred the LAC. If you think CTCLs are populated by HS underachievers who are trying to make up for lost time, who had to settle for this school when they really wanted to go to Amherst, you’re mistaken. </p>

<p>Consumed as our culture is with status and prestige, I know this is baffling for people whose primary standard for judging a college is USNWR. But it’s a fact – there are plenty of superior students who reject WASP in favor of CTCL. And they are getting a terrific education.</p>

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<p>First, Ad, don’t tell us we are missing the point, and that you know better, because that is downright pompous. </p>

<p>Second, what? Reed, for example, is one of the top schools for real intellectuals in the country. My school, New College, was definitely for geeky intellectuals. The school didn’t have to turn anyone around: no one would pick the school unless they were so inclined. </p>

<p>I think you are just enjoying irritating us.</p>

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<p>To answer the original question: Yes, S’s life was changed at Thomas Aquinas College in CA–one of the most unusual colleges in the world. See their website for more info.</p>

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<p>atomom, I just checked the Thomas Aquinas website, and you’re not kidding. Talk about pure education!</p>

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<p>Adcom is spot on on at least one point: all of these protests to the contrary, the large majority of students at CTCL schools are clearly and unequivocally those for whom the tops LACs are “not attainable,” and CTLC is aimed at those students and their parents.</p>

<p>And, seriously, Grinnell is now deemed bashworthy because it has progressed to the point where it is unattainable by most CTCL students? Suddenly it isn’t as intellectually rigorous as Knox? Preposterous. Just ask any graduate school admissions officer, and I’ll bet you’ll get vehement disagreement. For that matter, ask any student at any of the other top LACs. </p>

<p>In a recent year, Grinnell’s top five overlap institution for applications were Carleton, Brown, Chicago, Amherst, and Pomona. Students who apply to these schools are generally not intellectual basket cases. </p>

<p>I’m not sure why everyone keeps bringing up the U.S. news rankings. But, since they are, I happen to think they provide some useful information – particularly the reputation rankings – and shouldn’t completely be dismissed out of hand. If one school has better students than another, more money, and a better reputation, why shouldn’t it be ranked higher? The key is to use the rankings wisely and not be a slave to them. </p>

<p>Finally, a message to all the posters on this thread who insist that they’re paying less to go to a CTCL school than their state flagship. That’s just great, but as I’ve been saying all along I don’t think you’re CTCL’s target audience. My comments are directed towards the full or close to full freight folks. Very few schools – and I’d include all CTLC schools among them – are worth paying that kind of money for, especially if it requires borrowing. But if you can actually SAVE money by going to a CTCL school, then more power to you.</p>

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<p>Thomas Aquinas is indeed a unique and amazing school that I’m sure changes lives, but just to be precise, it is not on the CTCL list. There are many great schools that aren’t. </p>

<p>When my friend (a high school teacher) suggested that I read CTCL as we started searching for colleges, he also suggested that I read “Looking Beyond the Ivy League”, also written by Loren Pope. Up until that point we were pretty much looking at the same 25 “top” schools, along with everybody else. He made a very persuasive argument that there are plenty of colleges in America that are actually better suited to preparing one for a fulfilling life.</p>

<p>This is a quote:
“Vocational preparation, whether for engineering, medicine, business, or plumbing, is concerned with the job rather than the person. It does not seek to achieve the liberating and enlightening changes, in values, attitudes, and thinking that will help a student lead a productive and fulfilling life. That is only done by way of a liberal education. The vocational route prepares for only the most temporary of temporary satisfactions: the first job. Almost everybody changes jobs in the first years after graduation. And who has a crystal ball clear enough to see his last job? The fact is that for this and coming generations, the odds are overwhelming that it hasn’t been invented yet.”</p>

<p>We found we agreed with Loren Pope, so for these over-coddling parents the true value of education was to have our son learn to: think critically; communicate effectively; understand history, world religions and philosophies; speak another language; make enduring friends and connections; value the arts; and know how to learn and find the appropriate resources to re-educate himself over and over. Pope is just pointing out that the CTCL are qualified to do that, and in many instances better qualified to do that than more “highly ranked” schools.</p>

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<p>These schools aren’t for those left out from WASP or whatever…people choose these schools because they WANT to.</p>

<p>Here is an excerpt from a prof’s email to me: he chose an LAC over Chicago (Carleton)</p>

<p>“I think that nothing is better preparation for graduate study at the top schools than a great liberal arts education. It is why I chose NOT to go to Chicago as an undergraduate. I wanted the perfect preparation, which I got at a liberal arts school, followed by my dream of studying for the doctorate at Chicago. An anthropology major at Beloit College (recognized as one of the best, and often THE best, undergraduate department of anthropology in the country) is perfect. I am biased toward liberal arts colleges (four year ones like Beloit) for the B.A. Not everyone would agree, but it is hard to argue with the results over time.” </p>

<p>I’m not even sure if Carleton is in CTCL, but clearly he loves Beloit, which is.</p>

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<p>Novaparent, nobody should go into huge amounts of debt for any school, I think we would all agree with you on that. NO school is worth a lifetime of crippling debt. If that’s your only point, there isn’t an argument here.</p>

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<p>Rbouwens, no Carleton is not on the CTCL list, and frankly if you don’t know that (and can’t even intuit it based on Carleton’s reputation and selectivity) then you are not sufficiently informed to participate in this discussion. We’re not talking about liberal arts colleges generally, we’re talking about CTCL colleges and the CTCL book specifically. </p>

<p>Bopampo, my point goes beyond that. No merely above average school is worth paying a top school price to attend. (I’d consider paying full price for Carleton but not for Beloit.) And, for the record, when I talk about top schools I’m not talking about U.S. News. The schools on top at U.S. News were largely on top before the magazine came along. (I’d also venture a guess, based on the description of what you’re looking for for your “coddled” son, that money isn’t much of an issue for you or your family.)</p>

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<p>novaparent, I know this is hard for you to believe, but there are actually people who would rather go to Beloit than Carleton, for variety of reasons. What you prefer to do with your money is your business. Parents need to be educated about how FA and merit aid works and be able to make informed choices regarding tuition. Beyond that, where they choose to invest their resources is just that, their choice.</p>

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<p>Let’s look at some data:</p>

<p>Beloit, middle 50% ACT range, 24-30; average, 27
Carleton: middle 50% ACT range, 29-33; average, 31</p>

<p>Now, with the huge caveat that these schools consider GPA and other so-called “holistic” factors, to the extent that you can make generalizations based on ACT scores:</p>

<ul>
<li>Clearly most of the kids who get into Beloit who would not be competitive at Carleton</li>
<li>The top students at Beloit would be average students at Carleton</li>
</ul>

<p>Does that mean that Carleton offers a better education than Beloit? No; research shows that in terms of educational outcomes, for a motivated student, it really does not matter where he or she goes to college. So if a kid who was accepted to Carleton and Beloit was also accepted at, say:</p>

<p>Truman State: middle 50% ACT range, 25-30; average, 28</p>

<p>at less than half the cost of either private school, then no parent or student who was making a decision based on rational factors would choose either Beloit or Grinnell.</p>

<p>Of course, if one or both of the privates offered a substantial financial aid package (and Beloit is known for generous aid, I don’t know about Carleton), then that could change the equation.</p>

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<p>For reference, here’s why schools are on the CTCL list:</p>

<p>[Why</a> These Schools | Colleges That Change Lives](<a href=“http://www.ctcl.org/about/why-ctcl]Why”>http://www.ctcl.org/about/why-ctcl)</p>

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<p>bopambo says:</p>

<p>“novaparent, I know this is hard for you to believe, but there are actually people who would rather go to Beloit than Carleton, for variety of reasons. What you prefer to do with your money is your business. Parents need to be educated about how FA and merit aid works and be able to make informed choices regarding tuition. Beyond that, where they choose to invest their resources is just that, their choice.”</p>

<p>I agree with most of this, and in fact have said from the beginning that what people do with their own money is their own business. That doesn’t mean I have to think they’re being smart.</p>

<p>As for people who “actually would rather go to Beloit than Carleton,” this is certainly true. But not very many feel this way, and not very many at Beloit are given the choice. Carleton is a better school.</p>

<p>Oh, an vonlost, just so we’re clear: that website isn’t “why” they’re on the list. It’s only why they say they’re on it. </p>

<p>Gimmick.</p>

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<p>Novaparent: you are arguing about something else entirely, when you are talking about full pay on an LAC. I am completely with you on that. I wouldn’t pay in full for Harvard, for that matter. Unless my kids can rake in good merit money they are going to a SUNY, which we can pay for out of pocket. But that’s not what this thread is about.</p>

<p>The original topic is compelling. Can we stick to that?</p>

<p>Also, Nova, Ad, etc. the list is diverse. Some of the schools are good programs for B students (shouldnt they have a good place to go, also), some are for intellectual heavy hitters, Reed, New College, St. Johns. Some are religious-affiliated, most not, etc. you can’t make too many generalizations about the list. You really have a problem with Reed? Whitman? Come on. </p>

<p>New College, by the way, is a state school, Florida’s honors college. For instate students, an incredible bargain.</p>

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<p>Among the questions asked in the original post was:</p>

<p>“Do you think that the CTCL label is well deserved?”</p>

<p>My comments relate to this topic. And my response is no. I think it’s a marketing gimmick. </p>

<p>I also find it interesting to have just read that there are still spaces available in the freshman classes at both New College and St. Johns. CTCL has work to do.</p>

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<p>novaparent, why are you being so combative? It seems you have a history of hijacking other threads, but for some reason your usual target is UW-Madison.</p>

<p>You say “the large majority of students at CTCL schools are clearly and unequivocally those for whom the tops LACs are “not attainable,” and CTLC is aimed at those students and their parents.”</p>

<p>That’s BS. You do not know what you are talking about. I challenge you to offer data.</p>

<p>Then you say this: “And, seriously, Grinnell is now deemed bashworthy because it has progressed to the point where it is unattainable by most CTCL students? Suddenly it isn’t as intellectually rigorous as Knox?”</p>

<p>Again, you miss the point. Grinnell was not “unattainable” by my son, and I never said it was less intellectually rigorous than Knox (I am sure it’s not). I offered an anecdote of our experience visiting both schools. My son preferred other schools for many reasons.</p>

<p>“Just ask any graduate school admissions officer, and I’ll bet you’ll get vehement disagreement. For that matter, ask any student at any of the other top LACs.”</p>

<p>Well, of course any student at a “top LAC,” if he or she is so status-conscious, will vehemently defend why his or her school is superior. </p>

<p>As for grad school admissions officers, again you are totally out of your depth, and COMPLETELY WRONG. Here is an NSF chart for PhD production in math and computer science.</p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: 1994 to 2003 from NSF database </p>

<p>Enrollment from 2004 USNews </p>

<p>Formula: PhDs divided by undergrad enrollment times 1000 </p>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology 107
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 63
3 Harvey Mudd College 55
4 Harvard University 32
5 Reed College 31
6 Rice University 28
7 Princeton University 25
8 Carnegie Mellon University 20
9 University of Chicago 19
10 Pomona College 19
11 Swarthmore College 18
12 Yale University 18
13 Brown University 17
14 Williams College 16
15 Stanford University 16
16 Grinnell College 16
17 St Olaf College 16
18 Haverford College 14
19 Oberlin College 12
20 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 12
21 Carleton College 11
22 Amherst College 11
23 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 11
24 Cornell University, All Campuses 11
25 Bryn Mawr College 10
26 United States Military Academy 10
27 University of California-Berkeley 10
28 Mills College 10
29 Kalamazoo College 9
30 Knox College 9
31 Dartmouth College 9
32 Cooper Union 9
33 Brandeis University 9
34 Duke University 8
35 United States Air Force Academy 7
36 Wesleyan University 7
37 Bowdoin College 7
38 Polytechnic University 7
39 University of Pennsylvania 7
40 Case Western Reserve University 7
41 Vassar College 7
42 Johns Hopkins University 7
43 Wellesley College 7
44 Birmingham Southern College 7
45 Whitman College 7
46 Columbia University in the City of New York 7
47 Union College (Schenectady, NY) 6
48 College of Wooster 6
49 Lawrence University 6
50 University of Rochester 6
51 Stevens Institute of Technology 6
52 Washington University 6
53 Northwestern Univ 6
54 Smith College 6
55 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 6
56 Bucknell University 6
57 Hendrix College 6
58 Furman University 6
59 University of Bridgeport 6</p>

<p>And another covering biology and health sciences:</p>

<p>Percent of PhDs per grad, covering ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>

<p>Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) taken from IPEDS database</p>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology 5.4%
2 Reed College 4.8%
3 Swarthmore College 4.4%
4 University of Chicago 3.3%
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 3.1%
6 University of California-San Francisco 3.1%
7 Harvard University 3.0%
8 Kalamazoo College 3.0%
9 Harvey Mudd College 2.9%
10 Earlham College 2.8%
11 Johns Hopkins University 2.7%
12 Princeton University 2.6%
13 Haverford College 2.6%
14 Mount Holyoke College 2.6%
15 Yale University 2.5%
16 Rice University 2.5%
17 Lawrence University 2.5%
18 Carleton College 2.5%
19 Stanford University 2.5%
20 Oberlin College 2.4%
21 Cornell University, All Campuses 2.4%
22 Grinnell College 2.3%
23 Hendrix College 2.3%
24 Bryn Mawr College 2.1%
25 Bowdoin College 2.1%
26 Wellesley College 2.1%
27 Amherst College 2.1%</p>

<hr>

<p>So…your point is?? Would you like to do Fulbrights next?</p>

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<p>novaparent, here is how you described your own kids in a different thread:</p>

<p>“I’ve had two (upper middle class non-URM) kids get into U-Va from our highly regarded Northern Virginia high school. One barely cracked a 1300 and graduated with a weighted high school GPA of 3.7. The other “only” scored in the mid-1200s and graduated with slightly over a 4.0 weighted GPA – without any AP math or science classes.”</p>

<p>My guess is that they got rejected from some “top-tier” LACs and you have at least some lingering notion that they might have done well at a “lesser” (in your mind) LAC, possibly even a CTLC school–but it’s too late. Same goes for UW. You clearly have an axe to grind there. Maybe you are a professor who got turned down for tenure–you mentioned having lived in Madison–or something happened during the admissions process with one of your kids to sour you on the school. You have spent a lot of time bashing everything you possibly can on the UW threads and hijacked a number of conversations about which you know little and have no investment. Kind of like here.</p>

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<p>Believe me, I have no axe to grind. Each of my children had plenty of options from which to choose, and they all ended up in schools that, in my opinion, are hands down better and certainly less expensive than any CTCL school. Two went to U-Va, as you have now gathered – and, contrary to your assumption, did quite well and absolutely loved it. You see, you can’t have it both ways, arguing on the one hand that holistic admissions are what it’s all about and is what distinguishes CTCL, then assuming on the other hand that because my two U-Va kids didn’t have off-the-chart SAT scores compared to other U-Va kids that they didn’t/couldn’t do well there. In fact, they did (and U-Va has holistic admissions!). Let’s try to be consistent, shall we? </p>

<p>If U-Va isn’t your cup of tea, then in Virginia we have William & Mary, which also outshines any CTCL school. And if you can’t get into either of those, you go to JMU, Mary Washington, Tech, or VCU. And in my experience once you’re out of any of these schools and in the real world where you went really doesn’t make much of a difference – except of course, you’re less in debt.</p>

<p>This is, plain and simple, why I think it makes no sense to go to a second tier private school. </p>

<p>Oh geez, how could I forget this? I only had one kid apply to a “top ranked” LAC. Carleton. Got in. Didn’t go. </p>

<p>No need to take pot shots at me just because we disagree.</p>

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<p>Novaparent, thank you for your opinion. This horse is dead, would you please stop beating it?. </p>

<p>This is the question posed by the OP:</p>

<h1>2. For those who are already attending one of the Colleges That Change Lives schools (or who did … or whose child did), do you think that the CTCL label is well deserved? I can think of several CTCL alums in my own orbit whose lives were indeed altered (in a good way) by their college experience. Of course, we will never know if this would have been true at ANY school. Even so, I welcome anecdotes of CTCL schools earning their moniker.</h1>

<p>I personally would like to hear more from people with personal experience at these institutions.</p>

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<p>novaparent, I did not take any pot shots at you. Your record speaks for itself. And as I am sure you know, the two kids you described would never have had a shot at top LACs, and might have been iffy for UW.</p>

<p>I still don’t understand why you are bringing up all these other Virginia schools. What do they have to do with CTCL? And why are you comparing? (But since you are, average ACT range for JMU or Mary Washington are 22/23-27…Hendrix, for example, is 27-32). And I don’t see any of the VA institutions on the PhD lists I posted, which based on your earlier comment about grad school admissions should be important to you.</p>

<p>Also: everyone’s financial circumstances are different. Three CTCL schools offered packages to my son that would make the COA under $20k a year. The net price for colleges varies by numerous factors for each student. But if you really care about people wasting their money on college, take your concerns to the NYU page or that of another pricey school where the ROI is not demonstrable.</p>