<p>Hoping perhaps the ‘Senior Advisor’ is still participating in this conversation, because I actually have a question regarding ED that I don’t understand:</p>
<p>We hope to have our child use some GI Bill money, and are researching colleges that have a Yellow Ribbon tuition match program. The problem is that some schools have a VERY limited number of spots (think 3 or 4) while others have unlimited slots for the tuition match. We’ve also been informed that in situations where there are only 3-4 slots, they are given away on a first come-first served basis, rather than according to merit or any other criteria. </p>
<p>Thus, it seems like: If you want one where they are limited, it would make sense to apply ED – On the other hand, if you got in but didn’t get the tuition match, you would clearly have to withdraw. My question is thus whether THIS would be seen as ‘gaming the system’ or somehow unethical – doing ED to have the best shot at getting tuition aid, and knowing full well that you wouldn’t go otherwise.</p>
<p>No, Momzie. You wouldn’t be gaming the system here. (I assume that you would get the tuition-match information at or around the time of the ED verdict, right?) If your child does NOT get the match, you would be withdrawing for financial reasons, which is totally legit.</p>
<p>@dlthf1026 the agreement states that you agree to attend that school if admitted. So, if you apply ED to a US school and decide to go to a school outside of the country, you would still be breaking it. If you’re applying ED to an international college, I would do some research to see what their ED means.</p>
<p>Now that colleges are implementing on-line financial aid calculators, it would seem prudent to make parents sign off that they have input their prior year’s income and assets into said calculator and acknowledge that they can meet the EFC at schools that do not give merit aid. Whether parents are delusional in thinking someone else will give need based aid while they retain all their savings or are just too lazy to address these realities before an application is made, it does not serve anyone in the process. You can not force someone to attend against his will but you certainly can let applicants know that you will share their ED admissions acceptance effectively blackballing them from other institutions if they don’t comply with the agreement.</p>
<p>They do give an early read on financial aid. We knew just where we stood withing two weeks of the offer. It might have even been sooner but my memory on the incidentials are fading.</p>
<p>There’ve been several anecdotal postings already where the EFC given by a NPC is far more optimistic than what’s actually disbursed as an actual FA offer. I agree that parents should at minimum run the numbers, but I wouldn’t take them as a guarantee. Hence the need for the escape clause.</p>
<p>Lafalum84, I hadn’t appreciated that ED nuance about your D’s school. Since the school isn’t on the Common App, it doesn’t have the option of dropping a blackball on a student’s other CA applications if a student reneges on ED. However, since the school emphasizes its honor code, maybe it’s just as well to see early on that a student isn’t going to stand up to their word. </p>
<p>How many other ED schools have no FA escape clause? At least Lafalum84’s D’s school has a relatively low COA, making it affordable even at full-pay for a broader spectrum of families. Having the same kind of ED agreement at $50-60k full pay would be a different matter.</p>
<p>I have a question that is getting very little play–where is the high school administration? The kid whom backs out not only hurts his reputation as someone who has little regard for his/her word (save for FA or medical issues as noted above…) bu that of the high school who will develop a reputation that isn’t favorable–why-- bc the ED agreement on the Common Application requires the student, the parents/guardian(s) AND the guidance counsellor’s assent. The High School is on notice of the ED and it has agreed to it in regard to this student.</p>
<p>The answer is simple. At my daughter’s school once an ED is favorable you are DONE. No transcripts, recommendations mid year reports–nothing-- will be sent to any other school whatsoever. If a student has a problem (FA) then she/he has to appeal to the head of college advising to be permitted to apply elsewhere. If the high schools took their responsibility seriously this would be except for a very few, a non issue. It doesn’t require much personnel-- a computer program tracks each student’s applications and the student is obligated to update it (if the student does not report a rejection/deferral of the ED by the college, the system shuts down and needs a manual override-- and as the guidance counselor has to sign the ED form on the CA, it is logged into the system).</p>
<p>The question of legality is beside the point, businesses enter into legal contracts that both parties agree not to enforce-- that doesn’t mean that one party couldn’t enforce it, but the businesses see things in the longer term and are willing to waive rights. Here there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it is legal but no college wants someone who has so little morals as to try to violate the ED agreement–they will take the “goodbye to bad rubbish” approach. I don’t feel sorry for the rejected college–I feel sorry for the college who takes such a morally underdeveloped person–caveat emptor, I suppose.</p>
<p>Perhaps the colleges should make it so that the ED application process automatically puts the financial aid application numbers into the NPC, includes it in the application records, and displays the results for the applicant to print before submitting the application as ED. Then the ED condition can allow the escape clause for financial aid reasons only if the actual financial aid offer is worse than the NPC estimate.</p>
<p>Then the colleges would have more incentive to have accurate NPCs.</p>
It would have to be extremely anecdotal since they were just put up in November and we haven’t even got to an RD round yet. So far only ED students would have received FA notices, and most schools with ED will use the CSS Profile which will penalize business owners. Can you imagine trying to jam all the numbers and tax forms into the NPC online for an really accurate read on FA?</p>
<p>I understand that people pull out if their financial position changes and that makes sense. At the end of the day I agree with those folks that say IF parents had done a little research and used the EFC’s (which for some schools have been up for quite awhile) and read the financial aid page, they can take a pretty accurate stab at what the school is going to offer. Always plan for it to be a little less so if it’s more it’s a bonus. D2’s dream school said point blank DO NOT APPLY ED if you run the EFC and aren’t sure. They also said don’t count on merit aid as it is very competitive. </p>
<p>I am troubled by families I know who KNEW what their EFC was (even if it was more than they really could afford) and knew what the package would probably look like (i.e. it included loans) AND then still pulled out (yes we know someone) because they didn’t get the merit aid they really thought they were shoe in for. If you aren’t sure you can afford it apply RD or apply ED and work your tush off before and after you get in applying for private scholarships.</p>
<p>Sounds like an excellent plan. Of course if finances change unexpectedly (job loss, sudden medical or other emergency expenses) or family emergency or medical concern arises (like a father mentioned upthread), the ED could still be pulled out of. But overall such a plan would make for a better system.</p>
<p>There are a number of reasons why the ED “contract” is not legally binding:</p>
<p>1) Most students are 17, a 17-year-old cannot sign a legally binding contract. And another person (such as a parent) cannot sign a contract creating obligations on another person (for example - I as a parent cannot sign my kid up to join the army and then legally require him to go)</p>
<p>2) There is no actual “deal” here - the school hasn’t actually promised anything at the point when the ED agreement is signed. If they were offering admission at this point, it would be a different story. There has to be consideration on both sides, and there is none.</p>
<p>3) Even if there was a contract, and the school sued for performance, every school lets you withdraw at the beginning of the semester and get your money back. And now they would have one less student. What would possibly be the point of that? Plus the bad PR would be amazing - “College sues student who doesn’t want to attend!”</p>
<p>Sharing lists to “catch” people at something is vindictive, and I suspect would open up the school to legal action. I’d be surprised if many still do it.</p>
<p>This is the case with my DD. She was thrilled to be admitted, but the financial aid – or rather the lack thereof – was so unrealistic for us that she is going to have to pass unless some kind of miracle occurs. It is very sad for her, and perhaps inconvenient for the school, but we can’t jeopardize our financial future.</p>
<p>You seem not to understand contract law all that well, and i’ll explain to you main points you’ve made that are not correct.</p>
<p>In response to post #49 by marvin100 you stated that if colleges had a legal leg to stand on, they would take these students to courts.
No they would not, because they could not prove any damages or sufficient damages to make the case viable. This in no means makes the contract invalid or any less of a contract. This is also not an assumption I am making about colleges. It is a fact that colleges have nothing to gain from prosecuting a kid over an moneyless agreement.</p>
<p>In response to post #50 where you said that because schools can revoke admissions, then students should have that right to.
When you are applying ED, you give up this right by agreeing to a contract. Also, if I pay you $500 to paint my house does that mean I inversely agree to paint your house for $500? Nope. </p>
<p>Marvin100, you are correct in that people under the age of 18 cant be held to a contract, unless the contract is a necessity (food, shelter) regardless of who countersigns. This is not a necessity, so you are right in saying that this contract is not legally enforceable for those who are under 18. You are wrong for what you said early about this not being a contract. Being underage is the only thing that makes these contracts void. Nothing else.</p>
<p>In closing, we shouldn’t judge the colleges based on speculation or assumptions based on their actions. We should judge them based on contract law and how the system works.</p>
<p>“Vindictive”? How so? Most schools probably are not willing to devote staff time and effort to setting up and administering systems for sharing names, but what’s “vindictive” about trying to determine if someone violated the terms of a signed agreement? </p>
<p>And as for potential legal action: The ED agreement (from Common App site) includes this language, “I also understand that with an Early Decision offer of admission, this institution may share my name and my Early Decision Agreement with other institutions.” Under that statement go the signatures of student, parent and counselor. Hard to imagine someone finding grounds for legal action with this signed statement on file.</p>
<p>This kind of system is effective, but requires a) a school with enough money to implement the software and b) a school which sends enough students through the ED process to actually care about the high school’s reputation with college admissions folks. Our local public school system, for one, simply doesn’t have the resources to set up that kind of software, as simple and straightforward as it is. Most kids are going to UCs and Cal States anyway. The district has no compelling reason to care about some random kid turning down an ED offer. </p>
<p>I agree that it’s unlikely for NPCs to ever be sophisticated enough to give accurate-enough FA pre-reads so that the school can guarantee that the NPC number is going to be the max that a family will pay. I’ll also bet that the schools really don’t care about making the NPCs more accurate just in order to reduce the number of people who turn down an ED acceptance on financial grounds. They lose what, just a few percent? Why spend tons of money on a complex NPC just in order to have a few people say they’re not going to bother applying ED? Because there are a lot of families who are so dazzled by that first college acceptance coming in that they are willing to stretch to cover a COA that’s higher than what they budgeted for.</p>
<p>Notrichenough, you and Marvin1000 are missing the point. It doesn’t matter to me if ED is a “legal binding contract” or not. That’s nitpicking. </p>
<p>It’s an ethical issue. If you sign your name to a statement that says, “If you do X, I’ll do Y,” and then the other party does X, basic ethics and moral decency means that you need to do Y (in the absence of an unforseeable, extenuating circumstance). If you are maybe 70 - 80% sure that you’ll do X - unless something better comes along - then DONT sign a statement promising to do it. </p>
<p>If you really believe that signing a statement that isn’t legally binding means its not morally or ethically binding… then I don’t know what to say. That’s not a world-view I want to be associated with. I certainly don’t want to hire you, and I don’t want you at my college.</p>
<p>For those who have an unforseen medical situation arise, or whose finances take a sudden negative change, bailing out of an ED agreement is perfectly fine. Otherwise… apply EA. Or RD. But don’t try to game the system by applying in the ED pool, where the acceptance rate is often much higher, and then bail out when you decide the grass is greener elsewhere.</p>
<p>Don’t look to MIT then, since that’s where Marvin’s students decided to attend after turning down ED acceptances… But what the heck, if Marilee can lie, why not matriculating students? :rolleyes:</p>