I know far too many affluent parents who agreed to their untalented progeny’s pursuit of careers in the arts. Perhaps it doesnt matter as the families have money, but not all kids accurately assess their abilities. As I mentioned above, I really don’t care what people spend their education money on as long as I am not expected to subsidize it. Unfortunately, the highest rate of federal loan defaults is by holders of arts/humanities degrees. If you are going to borrow money, make sure you can repay it.
4 Likes
I think I am in the middle of the 2 poles here. I would support my kids going into arts or majoring in something not pre-professional. But me kids were also brought up unshielded from the cost of our HCL area w/o us constantly mentioning it AND we also point out that there are many cheaper places to live.
@neela1, so this is a tricky situation - yes, my kids are also frugal but they know the high cost of the life we lead. I have to be careful not to over emphasize because we know kids in this situation (HCOL/private schools) who get despondent when they realize they are unlikely to provide the same kind of life for their families.
1 Like
Yes and parents can’t control their kids lives forever. I’ve seen that parents who are hands off have kids who find their own path. Kids need to figure it out within reason.
I can tell you based on having gone to an Ivy and taking double humanities and nearly majoring in a third subject that these FGLI kids are fine. They are in tech, banking, major companies, start ups and they become everything you can think of. Don’t know why one kid who can’t get a job post Ivy with a humanities degree represents the thousands who are wildly successful. They are out there. Look on linked in.
4 Likes
Many are fine, some are not. Obviously no guarantees
That’s the question. What proportion of FGLI Ivy grads fall through cracks vs. non
FGLI, and throw in URM as a filter as well.
There are other nuances as well.
FGLI ORM vs FGLI URM.
FGLI from single-parent vs. double.
FGLI but with steady government jobs (say single breadwinner household with 3 kids making 50k) or not.
FGLI immigrant vs FGLI non-immigrant.
1 Like
SES is a better predictor than race, in my experience. Children of wealth do just fine no matter what, as their parents can set them up to do so. Not a lot of downward mobility for the wealthy.
4 Likes
In my county, we have a MS/HS for the performing arts. It is a magnet school, so tryouts. Some get rejected on their first try, but then are successful. A few of these young adults will be accepted into the top colleges in their field, like NYU.
I know some parents who support their children trying to make it in LA or NYC. If the child hasn’t made it into the magnet school, or been a lead in HS productions, I wonder why. The 35 y o son of my neighbor just returned home. A GF is still supporting her 30+ y o daughter in NYC. I would never push my child into a field he/she didn’t like, or was weak in the subject, but I hope I’d be realistic about their chances to succeed in PlanA.
3 Likes
Okay. IME at a T20 and also in my kid’s experience as a junior at a T5, the students getting jobs in tech, banking, major companies, start ups, etc. are either very well-connected or major in quantitative, lucrative subjects. It’s the double whammy of being both FGLI as WELL as an arts/humanities/social sciences (except Econ) major that’s the killer. FGLI students can get attractive jobs after undergrad, but extensive coursework in practical, lucrative, and quantitative fields is key — ESPECIALLY in 2022.
1 Like
Obviously, for someone growing up in the upper middle class, there is far more space for downward mobility than there is upward mobility. But then that realization leads some (not all) of the kids or parents to focus on “as much money as possible”.
1 Like
Work life balance is important to my D too.
2 Likes
You can cut it a thousand ways. Comes down to this, is the kid able to be flexible and adaptable? Is the kid willing to work hard and take on 2-3 jobs post college or are they thinking they will start a high paying job out of college? A lot of kids who are FGLI have zero connections. They have to make them. They might work longer to get to the level someone else does with a family connection/higher SES. That doesn’t mean they can’t get there. And don’t ever forget that there are many people who will reach out a hand to a kid who’s a hard worker with the right attitude.
While I think we agree that we want every student to be able to support themselves after college, I have some disagreements with the conclusions you come to. There’s been a minor theme on this thread, implied or otherwise, that FGLI students should aim for, to use your words, lucrative careers and building intergenerational wealth. I have several problems with this line of thinking, but I’ll only list two.
• The implication is: if you come from a low SES background, these are the types of majors/careers that are appropriate for you. All those other paths are for other people, not you, based on the family circumstances you happened to be born into, which you had no control over. As someone who grew up in a low SES environment, I would have been angry if someone had told me I’m restricted to certain career paths solely because of the SES status of my parents. I’m not saying realistic issues don’t play a role; we all have to accept practical limitations about certain things (starting with “can I afford college in the first place”). But accepting fixed limitations is not the same as being told “you must head in this direction because you came from that place”.
• Telling someone they need to (or should) strive for a career with a particular income or job security or whatever is projecting one’s own values onto them. A desire for upward mobility in an increasingly economically stratified society is real, and common, and a fundamental part of the American Dream. And yet there are all kinds of reasons why someone may not share these same financial needs or goals, many of which have been discussed in this thread. Again, it’s all about informed choice.
Using as an example the teacher in the expensive area who was spending more than they earned, I believe the biggest thing they were missing was adequate information to make informed choices. This student would ideally have been told things like what teacher salary they can expect in any location they are considering, details about the cost of living in certain areas, tips about budgeting, and so on. For FGLI students who are unlikely to get that sort of information from their families, it’s incumbent on the colleges that admit them to provide it, somehow.
Given enough info, this teacher may well have said “screw that, I’m majoring in computer science”. Or they may have decided they still want to be a teacher, but “if I’m going to live there, I need a job in a well paying school district”. Or “I’m going to look into lower COL locations”. Or “here’s how I can stretch my budget”. That sort of thing.
The vast majority of FGLI students are likely deeply concerned about improving upon the struggles they saw their own parents go through. Some will make career choices to get as far away from that as possible. But there are those who genuinely want to be teachers, social workers, and other low paying professions, even knowing they won’t “get ahead” financially. As long as they can figure out how to support themselves, I see no problem with that. There are also those that feel a strong desire to give back to the communities they grew up in. This is often their driving motivation, rather than financial gain.
So, as has been stated over and over, I’m for informed choice, not pushing in a particular direction.
5 Likes
Of course. But the statistics are also interesting.
I know of kids in the FGLI bucket heading to Ivies this fall but:
- come from top NYC magnet schools
- ORM
- immigrant parents have some college, didn’t complete
- aforementioned steady gov job
I think this sub category of FGLI will probably do just fine whether STEM or not.
Agree, students need the information to make informed choices. Another part of making an informed choice is how competitive a given desired career path is. A typical example would be all of the high school senior pre-meds who single-mindedly focus on becoming physicians, many of whom apparently do not realize that most get weeded out and have to find some other career path. An informed choice may still lead to doing pre-med, but also planning for and building up the foundation for backup career paths (which may include choosing specific courses or major in college to help with that), rather than having to figure that out after getting shut out of medical schools around college graduation (or after a post-college gap year).
4 Likes
Yes, as I said, you can cut the FGLI bucket a thousand ways. But there are many who aren’t in your categorizations who will do just fine as well.
IMO, the degree is one piece of the puzzle. The personality, drive and experience of every person matters as well. I personally think that resiliency, flexibility in thinking and drive are equally important. And being able to work well with others. That’s the #1 IMO.
Kids need to make informed choices about their careers. That can include their SES and the path to a particular career. But nothing is off limits to any kid at 18 (assuming their medical and mental health is fine).
1 Like
THIS!
THIS TOO!
2 Likes
My response was more to do with how elite colleges should differentiate and help FGLI and not assume they have the tools to make it in whatever field they choose.
Good point! Also, if you stick with a career long enough and do well, you can get raises! I didn’t make a lot as a teacher to begin with, but I stuck with it, did professional development and got raises. That said I was at a private school and I taught there for about 25 years, then became an administrator and still taught two classes. I know teachers who taught with the public school system and had great salaries. My sister and BIL taught in the one highest paying school districts in the country.
2 Likes
Yes, colleges need to have support structures in place to help kids launch their careers rather than just get a degree. It’s better than it used to be. Career services are much stronger and kids often utilize these services rather than in years past when one got a job via pure connections. There’s still a lot of work to be done. Kids from a high SES know what they need to do, why not teach other kids the same?
1 Like
I’ve seen the same thing. My D did dance and was in some plays in elementary, middle, and high school. She also did piano for several years as well. She was never interested in doing any of this as a career, so that was a non-issue for us. S played the guitar for a while, but again, he wasn’t interested in doing it as a career. D is still a decent piano player and she can play a few songs and she still likes dance. S is still an ok guitar player. But, neither one was super talented and for them these things were hobbies.
D has a friend who majored in acting and her parents supported her. But, she got the lead parts in almost all the school plays and musicals. She does voiceover work now and is in a comedy troupe. But she seems to have the talent and she can certainly belt out the national anthem.
I’ve seen parents think their kid will make it big just because their kid is “cute” or “has the look.” D helped out with the elementary school plays when she was in high school and she said so many parents would get mad when their kid didn’t get a main part, even though the poor kid had stage fright. They’d say their kid was so talented, even though the poor kid clearly didn’t want to be onstage…
1 Like