<p>Research U’s also teach students how to think- LAC’s do not own the concept. The best of both will offer many of the same academic advantages. The choice between any LAC and any research U needs to consider the fit of student to a particular campus, hence the many debates forever. Likewise the “best” school depends on the fit for the student. Any school is useless if one can’t take the courses one wishes, eg a major is lacking. There is no perfect college/university.</p>
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<p>I think that would be true of many urban colleges and universities. I know that the Berkeley dorms are not physically on the Berkeley “campus” – at least not the part you think of as being the campus, though the University may technically own the land. Many of the “off campus” Barnard dorms are physically closer to the campus center than many dorms that are “on” the campuses of geographically larger schools. At some physically larger schools, the walk to class from an on-campus dorm can be quite a hike. </p>
<p>So while the language is a little loose, I think that the stats really are referring to the number of students living in college-owned (or college-managed) housing. </p>
<p>FWIW, I wouldn’t consider the housing issue to be all that significant in distinguishing between LAC/ Research University in any case. The real question is how the undergraduate experience compares, and at many large research universities, the majority of undergrads are in campus housing.</p>
<p>Okay, the housing issue aside, I’m back to square one–it sounds like it is there is no clear definition. An LAC can be a combo school (and also offer pro. courses like engineering) and a large research university can offer a liberal arts curriculum. Okay so with that being said, given 2 schools–Smith and Northeastern–for example (I use those because D has applied to both), Smith is clearly a LAC but it sounds like it is possible to get a liberal arts experience at a big school like NEU (?) (And I know this example is like apples and oranges- small vs large, etc.)</p>
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<p>Maybe so, but for every rule defining an LAC or university you can pretty much always think of an LAC or university, respectively, that is an exception to that rule.</p>
<p>E.g., Rule: A Liberal Arts college does not offer professional training.
Exception: Harvey Mudd College offers ABET certified training as an engineer.</p>
<p>Dartmouth College and its alumni fiercely cling to the idea that it is an LAC despite having a medical school, a business school, and engineering school, and offering PhDs. Same for William & Mary. Many consider it an LAC despite having a law school and offering PhDs.</p>
<p>And so on…</p>
<p>@midmo – the kind of engineering offered at Smith is very very different from the professional engineering training offered at a non-LAC. Engineering is in many ways nothing more than the outgrowth of geometry, which is a classical, original liberal art. You can’t major in civil engineering or mechanical engineering at Smith, you can only major in general “engineering,” from a liberal arts perspective. And the engineers at Smith have to observe the most strict distribution requirements of any of the students at Smith, they probably get the best training in the liberal arts of any of us. </p>
<p>So I again go back to my point that there are some clearly defined rules, whether or not people on CC want to recognize them as such.</p>
<p>Re post #23: I think throwing NEU into the mix just muddles things, because of NEU’s unique co-op program. The NEU experience is going to be very different for that reason, but the difference has nothing to do with the research u./LAC dichotomy.</p>
<p>My d. also applied to NEU, which had virtually nothing in common with any of the other schools on her list – but I didn’t question the choice at all. NEU was a clear safety for her, and I simply assumed that she chose it because she was intrigued by the co-op program.</p>
<p>My son very strongly wanted to attend a LAC – he was looking for a small college, with small classes and an opportunity for students to interact closely with faculty. He attended a very small LAC, and later transferred to a small university (around 5,000 students). For him, “small” was important. </p>
<p>My d. was looking for urban and big. She actually ended up attending and graduating from a LAC - Barnard – but Barnard is also part of a large research U. (Columbia) – so she ended up getting aspects of both. (Including large classes with TA-led recitations, and some small classes taught by TA’s). </p>
<p>I think the real focus should be on what type of college environment the student is looking for, both in terms of the overall environment and in terms of the specific major and interests. LAC / research university are broad categories, with a lot of overlap. So asking to compare them is like asking for the pros & cons of living in a small town vs. big city. In theory, it is very different – but if you are planning where to live, you will want to know more.</p>
<p>Here, in the book “Distinctly American, the Residential Liberal Arts College” ([Distinctively</a> American: the … - Google Books](<a href=“Distinctively American: The Residential Liberal Arts Colleges - Google Books”>Distinctively American: The Residential Liberal Arts Colleges - Google Books)) is what Stephen Koblik, President of Reed College, says are the common characteristics of the American residential liberal arts college: “residential, small (500 to 3,000 students), educationally comprehensive, close interaction between student and teacher, and totally dedicated to undergraduate education.”</p>
<p>There are also many small colleges that are not LACs…and many LACs offer business degrees…yes, it’s muddy.</p>
<p>And some LACs offer some Masters degrees as well. Mine did. It was a combined undergrad/Masters program, IIRC.</p>
<p>Amd when in doubt, look up the definition on wiki 
[Liberal</a> arts college - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_college]Liberal”>Liberal arts college - Wikipedia) Looks like a pretty decent definition with appropriate explanations.</p>
<p>Both my D’s attend(ed) large OOS flagships, where each flourished. Each has taken advantage of the research opportunities as well. However, it would’ve been interesting to have seen how they fared at a good LAC, a few of which we visited on college tours. </p>
<p>On those LAC tours, I sensed the communal atmosphere, the one-on-one with the profs, but didn’t care for the potential cliquishness & the cultural sameness, at least at the Midwestern ones we visited. At the mondo state U’s, there’s the diversity but also the ‘just a number’ feeling of being one of 30 or 40-thousand students. However, I will say that once these students are pursuing their degrees as upperclassmen, that small-college feeling within the specific department comes back, which is pretty cool.</p>
<p>But in this economy, the absolute litmus test to me is how well that school prepares the student for employment, granted that the student puts max effort & grows as a maturing thinking adult. Four years of skating through doesn’t cut it anymore. Parents of HS soph/juniors would do well to keep this thought on the front burner.</p>
<p>Wonder how many parents have said to their kid, “Do as I say, not as I did!”?</p>
<p>Not every student is looking for the immediate job after college. Many want to attend professional school-- and the opportunities afforded at LACs can be very beneficial for that. While I can’t speak for the schools you visited, I would totally diasgree with, and am a bit put off by the “cliquishness/ sameness” comment. Quite the opposite is true at LACs, where individuality is supported and embraced. The huge U’s often cause the students to have problems accessing their desired or needed classes, etc. Have heard lots of stories of students closed out of necessary classes at the big Us – far far less so at the small schools, where the student can often go talk to the professor and be enrolled in a class.</p>
<p>I threw NEU and Smith in the conversation because, as I said, my D applied to both. She LOVES the co-op program at NEU and Boston. On the other hand, I think she likes the warm feeling and academic rigor of a school like Smith. She hasn’t heard from Smith yet, but has gotten into Brandeis and the honors program at NEU. I think the dilemma for her in choosing will be having the smaller LAC experience vs the vast resources of a larger university and the preparation NEU offers for obtaining a job post-grad. In this economy (even 4-5 years from now), being prepared to work, think and problem-solve may (practically speaking does) trump just being able to think and problem-solve. I want her to be prepared to do all of that. Will she be able to get the LAC experience from NEU? That is my biggest question. Will going there just be like her high school (a place where apathy is rampant and one studies to past tests without learning anything; aka AP classes)? That is her biggest fear. This is why I posted this question of LAC vs university.</p>
<p>Bob Herbert of the NY Times wrote a column recently discussing what if anything students are learning in college today:</p>
<p><a href=“Opinion | College the Easy Way - The New York Times”>Opinion | College the Easy Way - The New York Times;
<p>Food for thought…</p>
<p>jym626–this is a topic that’s been debated on CC forever. LAC vs. Big State U, what’s better? Ludicrous to decide, but fun to discuss. Again, pros & cons to both. All I was stating is what I saw personally & heard from other students, present & alums, as we did our due diligence. It was certainly not a dagger against the LAC’s, not even a generalization in my eyes. Maybe the LAC’s towards either coast are by definition more culturally diverse. Here, not so much. </p>
<p>I actually pushed D2 to attend a great LAC we had visited, partially because I thought it was a good fit, and also because the merit she was offered was far better than what she ended up getting at the OOS U that she ended up attending.</p>
<p>But what’s good for the goose…in that vein the Big U’s are (I think) unfairly chastised for the bureaucracy/snafus that sometimes exists re: being closed out of classes, etc. It happens but I think it’s more than offset by the variety of classes offered to fulfill a given requirement. THIS is a huge hot button topic on CC too. No right answer either!</p>
<p>RE: post-undergrad education, of course if graduate or professional school is a means to an end of GETTING A JOB, then it’s worth it. D1 is in med school, obviously necessary despite the insane costs. I imagine D2, also in the health sciences, will require some grad school as well in a couple years. That financially will be on them, hard as it may be, just as it’s difficult for us to pay down our Parent PLUS loans.</p>
<p>Finally, upstatemom, I am still of a mind that undergraduate education is to PREPARE, LAC or big U. For your D, she can have both of the qualities she seeks–the ‘warm feeling’ and the co-op style programs, wherever she ends up choosing. She may have to investigate, for example, NEU for the group/club/social aspect as well as Smith for its career center & job placement record, grad school or not.</p>
<p>Interesting…I always defined for myself an LAC as a college solely dedicated to undergraduate education with no professional programs (engineering, nursing, etc.) and no graduate degrees granted (masters, PhD etc.) I never considered size to be a factor or housing requirements, etc.</p>
<p>jnm-
Looking at your list of schools visited that you posted previously, it looks like you may have visited only one true LAC (Augustana college), one small University (Illinois Wesleyan) where your dau almost fell asleep in her interview?!?!?! :eek:, and two medium sized U’s - (Miami of Ohio) which can come across as “preppie” to some, and St. Louis U, which you didn’t like. Might be a bit narrow to comment about LACs from that tour (or student comments), with the rest being larger or big state U’s.</p>
<p>Yes, this topic has been debated for eons, and certainly for as long as we have both been on cc. There are pros and cons to big vs small schools. This includes the alumni networks, faculty contacts, etc. Many students are equally put off by the greek scene, the big sports focus, etc. To each his own.</p>
<p>Geez, jym, you do the poster research thing pretty well…you must’ve learned that at one of the BIG schools…:)</p>
<p>Yeah, when I saw that my D’s eyes were rolling back in her head (she had been pulling an all-nighter for an AP mid-term before we took the trip) at the IL Wesleyan interview, I knew she was cooked as far as a major scholarship went. I about had a coronary right there–hah! Certainly it affected her view of the school, and she didn’t apply.</p>
<p>I would’ve LOVED for her to visit places like Bard & Smith & Williams & Bowdoin for her (and me too) to get more of a personal perspective, but you know the dollar doesn’t stretch as far as it used to, so to get at least as semblance of an LAC/big U. yin-yang, those were the schools we visited. No apologies. It’s an inexact science, VERY personal, and anybody that sees us & others ramble like this on CC is hopefully the better for it.</p>
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<p>Judging from several friends and acquaintances who attended NEU and my own visits to the campus, no. </p>
<p>With a school population of 20,000 at the time they attended, it was more like a medium to large university with a large sometimes cumbersome bureaucracy to match. And boy, did they complain about the bureaucracy there. </p>
<p>Moreover, from their accounts and my own impressions visiting the campus, most students are pre-professional focused and are not always very interested in actually learning anything from classes not directly tied to their desired career. </p>
<p>As for co-ops, they are great for students in pre-professional majors like CJ, engineering/CS, business, pharmacy, etc…and a bit hit or miss for the arts & science majors, especially those in the humanities/social sciences based on my friends’ experiences. </p>
<p>Incidentally, I knew of one friend of an NEU acquaintance who transferred to an elite NE LAC because of the size, bureaucracy, and the extreme narrow pre-professional mindset of the student culture when she was there.</p>
<p>LOL, jnm. Just wondered what schools contributed to your opinion, looked at your past few posts and there it was- a beautiful summary of your visits! <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11981550-post1996.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11981550-post1996.html</a></p>
<p>Totally understand about the college visit thing. It is interesting to see how our kids create their college list. I wonder how helpful posters feel the video campus tours are? We didnt use those-- we tromped all over the country (finding airfare bargains and rental car deals and VRBO lodging rentals, visiting friends and relatives along the way and making a family vacation out of one or two of the trips that included skiing and such). Lots of ways to skin this college visit cat.</p>
<p>I totally agree that the difference is in the eye of the beholder and each kid will have their own criteria for decision making.</p>